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Old 01-21-2020, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Ohio
21,050 posts, read 14,896,175 times
Reputation: 17405

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
However deeply schooled in formal-logic, most of us wish for the proverbial cake, and to eat it to. We want clean, luxurious public parks... but cringe at the thought of paying taxes for funding the parks. We'd like for the police to chase away vagrants, to discourage robbers and to be immediately available when summoned; but we bristle at getting pulled over for speeding, and would generally wish to just be left alone. We'd like to be free to enjoy our outdoor party, with carousing and dance-music... but get irate when the neighbors fire-up their own outdoor stereo. And so forth.

If my taxes are reduced, that's only fair, because I am a heroic capitalist. If the rich guy's taxes are reduced, he's an exploiter and a robber-baron. If the poor guy's taxes are reduced, he's a moocher. And if the middle-class guy's taxes are reduced, well, he's probably not middle-class anyway... and in any case consumes more than he contributes.

Internally contradictory opinions are the natural result of human avarice and personal desire to self-advance. I'd be rather more surprised, and suspect a greater ruse, if coming across some person whose opinions were universally consistent.
I wouldn't disagree with what you said, but it does make a good argument for use/consumption taxes.

It's not unlike a rock concert. If you don't want to go, then don't buy a ticket. If you want to go, then buy a ticket, but don't demand that other people buy your ticket for you because you're "special."

Where things are constitutionally mandated, like defense, everyone should bear the burden. If it costs $23/year per person, then that's what everyone should pay.

Some would argue that the rich should pay more than $23/year simply because they can, but that's not really a good argument. A better argument would be that the rich should pay more precisely because they have more to lose than someone else.

While that might be a good argument for taxing people for defense and other constitutionally mandated necessities, it doesn't work when making the rich throw away their money on the "homeless."
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Old 01-21-2020, 05:46 PM
 
2,163 posts, read 888,386 times
Reputation: 3601
I interpret his words as "I complain about them, but deep down, there are certain parts about them that I like." Or "there are negatives about corporations, but there are also positives that benefit me." It's like complaining about your job but still going to that same job for the next 10 years becuase the pros outweigh the cons.

The part about him wanting a $10 tax on gas but not his own investments, of course not. Other people can pay taxes, just NOT YOURSELF. Everyone protects themselves and wants all benefits for themselves.
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Old 01-24-2020, 08:52 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
18,459 posts, read 20,504,976 times
Reputation: 14465
Quote:
Originally Posted by sas318 View Post
It's like complaining about your job but still going to that same job for the next 10 years becuase the pros outweigh the cons.
Everybody is a hypocrite on some level.

It’s just that the clever among us know how to mask our hypocrisy better than others.
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Old 01-25-2020, 06:42 PM
 
752 posts, read 301,186 times
Reputation: 2659
This makes me want to write down all my strong beliefs and see if they make sense. How many of us take the time to examine what we hold dear after we've made the decision, probably some time in high school or college and were probably highly influenced by the people we were hanging with.

I thought this thread was going to examine why MAGA voters illogically vote for someone who does not benefit them. My bad.
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Old 01-25-2020, 08:06 PM
 
2,314 posts, read 774,704 times
Reputation: 1985
When it comes to class issues, people usually draw the line right above or below where they are at. If you make $100,000, someone making $101,000 is greedy. If you work 40 hours, someone working 39 hours is lazy.
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Old 01-26-2020, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas & San Diego
1,186 posts, read 213,474 times
Reputation: 1103
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinkletwinkle22 View Post
This makes me want to write down all my strong beliefs and see if they make sense. How many of us take the time to examine what we hold dear after we've made the decision, probably some time in high school or college and were probably highly influenced by the people we were hanging with.

I thought this thread was going to examine why MAGA voters illogically vote for someone who does not benefit them. My bad.
I don't know who doesn't want to Make America Great - that sounds illogical. But this is an economics thread associated with beliefs, please do not try and make it politics discussion.
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Old 01-26-2020, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas (Winchester)
461 posts, read 340,246 times
Reputation: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Hopefully this won't end up in P&OC, but may fit either in Economics or Psychology, so I'll try here.

I spent about 14 years working with a guy who had some shall we say contradictory beliefs. Not here to criticize him because he was a great guy and we worked together about 14 years. In that time we had a lot of conversations.

To sum it up, politically he would be an extreme liberal socialist. Believing heavily in the nanny state and the use of government policies to regulate behavior. He regularly railed against big business and corporate profits. Yet at the same time economically he was an extreme libertarian. In his personal life he invested heavily in the same corporations he railed against and followed the stock market on a daily basis. His net worth was a couple million by his mid 30s.

He lived an extremely spartan existence (one of the reasons for his divorce) and believed everyone should live that way. To the extent he believed the government should enforce his chosen lifestyle on everyone. His chosen enforcement mechanism was through tax policy to apply punitive, almost confiscatory, taxes on anything greater than what he considered appropriate. IE property square feet, fuel use, electric, water, etc. For example, he believed there should be a $10 per gallon tax on gas to force people to not own cars. Though interestingly he didn't believe they should tax investments, where he had his money.

At the same time however he believed the government should not build roads. That all roads should be privately built and paid for by tolls. So in one conversation we had on this, when I asked "what about rural areas and farmers? There won't be public transportation out there and what about the impact fuel taxes and lack of transportation would have on farmers?"

His response was, then they'll have to move to the city, whether they want to or not. OK and what about the cost of food? If you put $10 per gallon tax on fuel and force farmers to pay for toll roads to bring food to market, the price of food will go up.

His response to that? Government should institute price controls.

Seriously. Confiscatory taxes, the free market prices, and government price controls all in the same conversation. Self contradictory and mutually exclusive beliefs. I've always wondered about the psychology behind such a belief system and it confounds me even today.
The guy sounds like a conservationist. His arguments all seem consistent to me, with the ultimate objective being to limit consumption to mediate its deleterious side effects on the planet. I think you may have rattled him with your questions, but the logical answer to questions about food production and pricing would be for the government to subsidize producers. In fact a lot of governments already do this, where a tax meant to affect consumer behavior, has an undesirable effect on producers. To offset that effect, governments subsidize the producer. The one contradiction I see is where you mention he favors no tax on investments. To be consistent, his argument should be that tax policy should favor investments that leave a smaller detrimental footprint on the planet.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:46 PM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
7,128 posts, read 11,084,996 times
Reputation: 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
In his personal life he invested heavily in the same corporations he railed against and followed the stock market on a daily basis. His net worth was a couple million by his mid 30s.

He lived an extremely spartan existence (one of the reasons for his divorce) and believed everyone should live that way.

I've always wondered about the psychology behind such a belief system and it confounds me even today.
"Belief" or "faith" is a type of energy. What one actually does is what one actually believes.

Idle talk is worthless.

Did you two have regular fruitful conversations and interactions strictly related to the work you did?

Because that's who we really are.
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Old Today, 03:15 PM
 
11 posts
Reputation: 10
Investing and wanting checks and balances in systems are not the same. For example, corporations should not able to buy their stock back and stash cash without penalty’s being accessed. Employees and customers make it work, not those in secret board meetings. But they are good at convincing us otherwise.
I am for employee ownership and voting requirements to keep corporations in check.
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