U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-25-2020, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Camberville
12,781 posts, read 17,674,051 times
Reputation: 21588

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
Do you understand the current situation in Japan? It's not terribly far from that in "Children of Men." Of course each child's birth is cause for community celebration, over and above traditions.

Women are also pushed right out of the workforce when they have children. 70% of mothers leave the workforce after having children, and those that remain face great difficulty in their careers due to discrimination. Men do less childcare and housework in Japan than in any other wealthy nation, even if both parents work.


This even impacts daycare workers - a field that is overwhelmingly women. It is one of the lowest paid professions that requires a college degree, and then women are expected to leave the field when they become mothers themselves. It's created a real daycare shortage in Japan.


It's not hard to imagine why educated women might be reluctant to become mothers in Japan.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-25-2020, 12:54 PM
 
1,963 posts, read 503,478 times
Reputation: 3155
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
That's not the argument... just the reality of a common correlation.
Okay.

My anti-argument is that it's not as common as believed. I may be casual about my contributions in some threads — not every thought is worth six cites — but I really don't care to have a barstool argument about "what everybody knows."

Carry on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2020, 01:01 PM
 
1,963 posts, read 503,478 times
Reputation: 3155
Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00 View Post
Women are also pushed right out of the workforce when they have children.
[...]
It's not hard to imagine why educated women might be reluctant to become mothers in Japan.
There is no question about the reasons for Japan's current woes, and I believe even most Japanese recognize them.

As someone who lived through the "Rising Sun" '80s, I don't find Japanese values, business, or society wholly admirable things. I do admire that the massive economic collapse following the "buy the world" era is being shouldered, quietly, by nearly everyone who took on excessive debt and loss, on a generational time scale. However, the streaks of racism/xenophobia, militarism, exceptionalism and misogyny run deep, and all of those are costing them dearly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2020, 01:09 PM
 
1,269 posts, read 761,756 times
Reputation: 2061
Quote:
Originally Posted by athena53 View Post
I listened to a BBC podcast on this and it's in line with what we've observed before, maybe a bit more extreme. Japanese parents tend to load their kids with extra classes, music lessons, tutoring, etc. so raising one kid takes major resources. Housing in the cities is also extremely expensive so they may not have the room for another one.



It's a very personal decision and I would never try to persuade someone who didn't want children to have them, but I think having kids is pretty unselfish when you think of what it takes to raise them. It's also a bit of a crapshoot I know plenty of parents who did the best they could and, to all appearances didn't do anything particularly bad but ended up with a dysfunctional kid anyway.



I do wish we could stop giving additional government benefits for, say, the 3rd and subsequent kids. I think it's been tried but you end up with kids who have even less of the basics. Maybe that's when you take Baby #3 to an orphanage.
What were their findings on the same phenomena in Scandinavian countries, which tend to have more egalitarian duty-sharing gender roles?


I’ve found most statistics to present data too generally, which is why they should be interpreted as correlations and not causations. In order to better understand a phenomenon and more accurately pinpoint the relevant issues, you need to view statistics from both the macro (most published statistical data) as well as the micro (personal anecdotes) levels. The more data points, the better. This helps policy makers devise more effective solutions.

I’ve seen too many studies which arrive at the same conclusions as mine, generated from anecdotal data and personal experiences. Could have saved the researchers a buncha money and time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2020, 01:46 PM
 
3,626 posts, read 1,487,361 times
Reputation: 9479
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingna View Post
What were their findings on the same phenomena in Scandinavian countries, which tend to have more egalitarian duty-sharing gender roles?
Sorry, my "what we've observed" was a reference to previous posts, about decisions to have more kids being based on your perception of whether or not there are enough resources to go around.

My guess is that in Scandinavia they still don't have large families. Even with generous parental leave and more sharing of responsibilities with a spouse (I didn't have either), I would have been concerned that I couldn't give 3 or 4 children the attention they deserved while holding down a full-time career.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2020, 02:28 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 536,806 times
Reputation: 3519
I don't view removing "disincentives" as equivalent to providing "incentives." The idea behind removing "disincentives" is women who may want children but due to getting career established, paying off college tuition, saving for a house, saving for retirement and other related reasons defer having children and/or decide not to have children. These women have a lost opportunity cost. This is different from providing financial incentives to women who decide to have children to maximize income.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2020, 03:01 PM
 
1,269 posts, read 761,756 times
Reputation: 2061
Quote:
Originally Posted by athena53 View Post
Sorry, my "what we've observed" was a reference to previous posts, about decisions to have more kids being based on your perception of whether or not there are enough resources to go around.

My guess is that in Scandinavia they still don't have large families. Even with generous parental leave and more sharing of responsibilities with a spouse (I didn't have either), I would have been concerned that I couldn't give 3 or 4 children the attention they deserved while holding down a full-time career.
What about the women who don’t have any kids? What factors are at play there, given they already have some of the incentives proposed by some here. And within the context of their society, where educational debt is minimal, and healthcare guaranteed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2020, 03:28 PM
 
3,626 posts, read 1,487,361 times
Reputation: 9479
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingna View Post
What about the women who don’t have any kids? What factors are at play there, given they already have some of the incentives proposed by some here. And within the context of their society, where educational debt is minimal, and healthcare guaranteed.
Now that's an interesting question! The answers may be as varied as they are in the US- raised in dysfunctional household and don't want to repeat it, just not feeling the "motherly" urge, haven't found the right partner and don't want to go it alone, intense career demands, hereditary conditions they don't want to pass on, infertility that can't be overcome and they don't want to adopt. Those are some I've heard in the US when people have volunteered. It's not something I'd ask anyone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2020, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
27,594 posts, read 20,591,792 times
Reputation: 33426
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingna View Post
What about the women who don’t have any kids? What factors are at play there, given they already have some of the incentives proposed by some here. And within the context of their society, where educational debt is minimal, and healthcare guaranteed.
In many cases, it's a simple lack of compatible partner or no desire to have children.

I'm a 34 year old man. I'll be 35 next April.

I've never had any desire to have children. I wouldn't mind dating a 30 something with a 10+ year old kid. I don't want kids of my own. That's a huge disincentive for women there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2020, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
7,127 posts, read 2,361,067 times
Reputation: 9878
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingna View Post
Why aren’t more women having kids in those countries where they are incentivized with economic subsidies and generous parental leave policies?
Because none of that welfare comes close to supporting kids from birth to 18, and smart people know that. You can’t bribe intelligent people to have kids.

You mentioned Japan, you do know in East Asian countries it’s perfectly normal for kids to live with their parents up into their late 20s and early 30s right? You think a government could subsidize that?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top