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Old 06-02-2020, 12:55 PM
Status: "...know when to walk away" (set 28 days ago)
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,120 posts, read 67,953,889 times
Reputation: 36953

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
America's has been destroyed by off shoring and ...
Hyperbole about 'destroyed' aside I'd offer that our faults are in HOW we've gone about it.
The other steps not undertaken, the practical limits on X, and so forth.

Quote:
I'd rather live in a primitive economy where our economy is more cooperative
than an advanced global consumer oriented system ...
A lot of people feel that way.
But it's real hard to make a financial market at that level.


Anecdote I can't attribute: Discovering/Manipulating to make a financial market from something
that people wanted to do everyday anyhow is what happened to the Internet, CableTV and now MJ legalization.
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:58 PM
 
2,731 posts, read 768,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I don't know if that is speculative or true, but much of the actual practical output our consumer market is based on comes from China.
Output and design are still not the same thing.

And no amount of change will come from wringing hands and wishing for the moon — that is, any plan that mourns the dear departed past and seeks to bring it back.

The solution lies forward, on three fronts no one really wants to face because it might mean their kids can't have an iPhone XXIII implanted on their twelfth birthday as a graduation present.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
12,744 posts, read 3,792,134 times
Reputation: 3430
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational View Post
Hyperbole about 'destroyed' aside I'd offer that our faults are in HOW we've gone about it.
The other steps not undertaken, the practical limits on X, and so forth.


A lot of people feel that way.
But it's real hard to make a financial market at that level.


Anecdote I can't attribute: Discovering/Manipulating to make a financial market from something
that people wanted to do everyday anyhow is what happened to the Internet, CableTV and now MJ legalization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
Output and design are still not the same thing.

And no amount of change will come from wringing hands and wishing for the moon — that is, any plan that mourns the dear departed past and seeks to bring it back.

The solution lies forward, on three fronts no one really wants to face because it might mean their kids can't have an iPhone XXIII implanted on their twelfth birthday as a graduation present.
I mean I probably agree with both of you in general if not specifically.

Primitive is a relative term, and while financial markets make it easy to allocate capital, if liquidity was more fractional and divided people could pool together capital and industrial as well as craft guilds would prosper. Of course they wouldn't be able to mimic financial markets, but at least financial markets wouldn't be the first priority of the economy.

Its a give and take, there will be draw backs.

I also agree in looking forward, but it depends on how. New disposable solar panels and solar farms are considered 'future forward', but new thorium nuclear plants are easier to scale and create a better collective conscience of energy use.

New technology isn't the problem, it is how it is applied and at what scale and for what purpose. There is such a focus on 'dynamism' I think we lose sight in what our end goal is. Policy should be a means to an end, not an end in of themselves.

And our society may have more wealth in terms of financial power, but our social system and economic system are more and more disconnected.

But people want fast moving consumer goods that function better for a lower price. And until they give that up, nothing will change.
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Old 06-02-2020, 01:54 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
26,070 posts, read 43,832,045 times
Reputation: 29467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
I don’t think it’s true that u.s tax law discourages manufacturing. ...

Many states have indirect tax credits as well where manufacturing purchases are exempt from sales and use tax.

The problem is that tax doesn’t drive 100% business decisions. It’s only one factor of many. As a tax function you can only report to senior management your report, and often the answer is...that’s great...but..

...At this point, many companies have about 1/3 of their sales in the U.S, so it only makes sense the majority of the production is elsewhere. It’s not 1950, with the worlds production base in ruin and the U.S accounts for 50% of world gdp. It’s down to 20% now.
My friends who own factories in Asia and eastern and western Europe often get direct incentives from gov on capital equipment purchases and adding jobs. (One friend gets $300k to $500k DIRECT payments from his national Gov council annually for capital equipment purchases that grow national commerce and employment).

I get $50k bills just for 'Use tax / Personal Property tax' whether my USA business is running or not. B&O tax is based on GROSS receipts, so you lose money on a job, you get to pay the state government as well!

Employees? USA is one of the most costly places to have employees! (France and Spain was expensive to have employees too) Entitlements and benefits and Workman's comp, UI, ... and of course TRAINING since USA HS and college grads can't count or do math.

Your company and location may vary, but if you are paying your quarterlies you likely are in the same battle. If you are an employee, or part of a non-capital intensive USA business you likely don't have to cough up a lot of dough every 3 months.
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Old 06-02-2020, 02:10 PM
 
3,854 posts, read 2,408,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
My friends who own factories in Asia and eastern and western Europe often get direct incentives from gov on capital equipment purchases and adding jobs. (One friend gets $300k to $500k DIRECT payments from his national Gov council annually for capital equipment purchases that grow national commerce and employment).

I get $50k bills just for 'Use tax / Personal Property tax' whether my USA business is running or not. B&O tax is based on GROSS receipts, so you lose money on a job, you get to pay the state government as well!

Employees? USA is one of the most costly places to have employees! (France and Spain was expensive to have employees too) Entitlements and benefits and Workman's comp, UI, ... and of course TRAINING since USA HS and college grads can't count or do math.

Your company and location may vary, but if you are paying your quarterlies you likely are in the same battle. If you are an employee, or part of a non-capital intensive USA business you likely don't have to cough up a lot of dough every 3 months.
I’m not sure why you cut out all the other incentives I referenced. It’s more than just sales and use incentive. There’s federal options provided. States give preferential apportionment and also offer credits and incentives But yes, Asia and Europe offer many of the same. I’ve worked in heavy manufacturing for some of the most recognizable brands in the world. I’ve seen tax plans from pretty much all 50 u.s states we file in and all 180+ foreign jurisdictions. For example, Poland has SEZ credits. But so do u.s states. At some level, it just becomes a game theory issue. Everyone is offering huge tax perks so it’s no longer a differentiator.

You reference training and skills. I’ve seen reimbursements by u.s states for example that will pay for the cost of training the employees at community college if the employer keeps certain number of employees around at a certain pay scale.

Yeah, B&O taxes are rare. That’s where the phrase “B&O stinks!” Comes from. Ohio CAT, Washington, and West Virginia are the only ones I’m aware of (some would include Texas margins tax). Again though, gross receipts taxes aren’t looked on very favorably.
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Old 06-02-2020, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
12,744 posts, read 3,792,134 times
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Here is another example, though less direct than industrial design, on actual applied businesses.

There are so many third party developers and tool based engineering companies that manufacturer can rely on, there is no other way to provide for a highly globalized consumer electronics market.

And not the change after 2001 and the entrance of China into the WTO. It is the backbone of modern international finance:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG5wGZAIAdM
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Old 06-02-2020, 04:30 PM
 
6,804 posts, read 2,050,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txfriend View Post
You should check out TI (Texas Instruments), a great company that has been around for a long time. Most likely something you use has a TI chip or part in it. They also invented the integrated circuit in 1958.
Jack Kilby developed a hybrid IC.

Robert Noyce developed the first true monolithic IC when he was at Fairchild Semiconductor.
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:04 PM
 
2,731 posts, read 768,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations View Post
Jack Kilby developed a hybrid IC.
Yes, but you forgot that they became fine watchmakers.
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Old 06-02-2020, 07:05 PM
 
5,928 posts, read 1,722,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
Since the late 1990s, nearly all high tech devices have been manufactured in Asia, initially in Japan, Korea, and Taiwan, later in mainland China, Malaysia, and Vietnam.

Why has this happened, and is it likely that some electronics manufacturing might come back to the West? What obstacles might be preventing this?

I have my own theories, based on general knowledge of current events, but I'm not in the hardware business (well, actually I do work for a company that manufactures various types of devices with factories worldwide, but I'm not on the hardware side).

It seems to me that Westerners have a pretty good grip on research and invention, but when it comes to the nitty gritty of steadily engineering, assembling, and improving fundamental components, we lack long term focus.

The Asians, however, seem to have the patience to do repetitious, detailed work like soldering chips and other parts into tiny circuit boards. Also, they now have almost a total monopoly on chip foundries and other fundamentals of electronic products like LED displays.

This last part puzzles me the most. Why can't someone set up a plant to make LED displays in, say, Florida or Arizona, that is equally competitive, given that the components don't require tremendous hand work? Literally, it could be a machine etching or extruding some kind of material with an almost completely automated process.
As a fully fledged conspiracy theorist, I'll share my take.

Despite higher labor costs, the US could have very well continued developing consumer electronics, but perhaps it would have been at a slower rate than industry magnates or shareholders would accept. There would be fewer products at higher prices. Consumers, in turn, would expect them to last longer. This would slow the roll-out and development of faster speeds (and thus richer programs) because no one would buy new machines each year. Maybe every 10.

We had this obsession with Moore's Law that insisted computing power would reliably double every 18 months. Even non-industry people can see the issue and liabilities that come with this notion.

With regards to chip speed, there is a magic ceiling somewhere around 5 GHz where we started making multiple cores (and likewise, threads) for reasons of heat, the kind of performance needed in new programs, and the limits of design.

We have continued, however, decreasing the process size and I believe we are currently at 7 nm (correct me if wrong), so electronics are getting smaller, and more power efficient. Moore's Law has since been broken - we don't NEED to double our computing abilities every 18 months. At least, not right now.
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Old 06-03-2020, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Washington Park, Denver
8,601 posts, read 7,789,869 times
Reputation: 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
As a fully fledged conspiracy theorist, I'll share my take.

Despite higher labor costs, the US could have very well continued developing consumer electronics, but perhaps it would have been at a slower rate than industry magnates or shareholders would accept. There would be fewer products at higher prices. Consumers, in turn, would expect them to last longer. This would slow the roll-out and development of faster speeds (and thus richer programs) because no one would buy new machines each year. Maybe every 10.

We had this obsession with Moore's Law that insisted computing power would reliably double every 18 months. Even non-industry people can see the issue and liabilities that come with this notion.

With regards to chip speed, there is a magic ceiling somewhere around 5 GHz where we started making multiple cores (and likewise, threads) for reasons of heat, the kind of performance needed in new programs, and the limits of design.

We have continued, however, decreasing the process size and I believe we are currently at 7 nm (correct me if wrong), so electronics are getting smaller, and more power efficient. Moore's Law has since been broken - we don't NEED to double our computing abilities every 18 months. At least, not right now.
If I read through all of this, it seems like you’re saying that economic returns drove off-shoring? That’s a fact, not a conspiracy theory.
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