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Old 05-28-2020, 10:16 AM
 
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The electronic industry is a good example of what happens when companies don’t buy their own stock...

Many American companies had great names in the business ...it made it easy for foreign companies to walk in and take control , keeping the name , firing our workers and shutting down operations here .

Zenith is a prime example
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Western NY
694 posts, read 743,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
Hardly.

But agitation to "create jobs" and "bring jobs back to the US, rah rah" is one with bringing back high-button shoes. Those jobs didn't simply relocate overseas; in the longer run they simply evaporated. .

Yes all those Japanese companies, Hong Kong companies, etc making pick and place are "evaporations". All the semiconductors and components are evaporations. The mechanical parts suppliers and parts are evaporations. The quality people, the R&D people, are all evaporations. Good we have buyers in USA or we would all evaporate.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:23 AM
 
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Thing is, people who haven't worked in manufacturing assume that the jobs in manufacturing are all direct labor jobs.


When you close the US plant and start making stuff overseas, yes all the direct labor is lost. So are all the support jobs - manufacturing engineering, manufcturing supervision, equipment and facility maintenance, quality control, purchasing, accounts receivable and payable. Once the people in the new location understand the product, engineering, R&D, marketing, and all those kinds of jobs can move too.


Let's not forget the industrial sales people who supply cutting tools, ***$ and fixtures, all the local machine shops that make custom tools and dies for the operation. Let's not forget the companies that manufacture the cutting tools, the assembly conveyors, the electric motors for the assembly equipment, the integrators who build and install the assembly lines, the millwrights who set all the machine tools in place, heck let's not forget the construction firms who build the building, the municipal inspectors who confirm the building permits, the restaurant owners where the employees eat lunch. All of that goes to the new overseas location.


Now if you automate less-automated operations, yes direct labor jobs are lost, a few or a few dozen at a time. Those people can sell out their houses, move elsewhere, have a hope of getting other employment. Just close the plant and throw all the people I listed above out of work, dump hundreds of unemployed people on the market all at the same time, and they'll all be underwater on their houses, all those people will be competing for jobs at the same time.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:30 AM
 
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.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:46 AM
 
2,817 posts, read 784,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestEngr View Post
Yes all those Japanese companies, Hong Kong companies, etc making pick and place are "evaporations". All the semiconductors and components are evaporations. The mechanical parts suppliers and parts are evaporations. The quality people, the R&D people, are all evaporations. Good we have buyers in USA or we would all evaporate.
You undoubtedly imagine that the number of people employed making automation machinery is somehow equal/equivalent to the number replaced by the automation.

But you should be smart enough to realize that the equivalence is nowhere near 1:1 and is likely to drop over time from market saturation, automated production of the automation itself, and so forth. One "autobot" replaces equivalent workers for years... and years, and years. (I write about industrial machinery over 100 years old that is still fiercely prized when it comes up for sale or auction.)
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Western NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
You undoubtedly imagine that the number of people employed making automation machinery is somehow equal/equivalent to the number replaced by the automation.
I never said any of that. Look at my posts, I never said what you keep bringing up. Good luck on your evaporation theory of mankind, and if we all evaporate, tell me what is next for the planet? Look, just I never said what you keep saying, you must be thinking of another conversation you had or something, seriously.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:53 AM
 
9,314 posts, read 7,895,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
Since the late 1990s, nearly all high tech devices have been manufactured in Asia, initially in Japan, Korea, and Taiwan, later in mainland China, Malaysia, and Vietnam.

Why has this happened, and is it likely that some electronics manufacturing might come back to the West? What obstacles might be preventing this?

I have my own theories, based on general knowledge of current events, but I'm not in the hardware business (well, actually I do work for a company that manufactures various types of devices with factories worldwide, but I'm not on the hardware side).

It seems to me that Westerners have a pretty good grip on research and invention, but when it comes to the nitty gritty of steadily engineering, assembling, and improving fundamental components, we lack long term focus.

The Asians, however, seem to have the patience to do repetitious, detailed work like soldering chips and other parts into tiny circuit boards. Also, they now have almost a total monopoly on chip foundries and other fundamentals of electronic products like LED displays.

This last part puzzles me the most. Why can't someone set up a plant to make LED displays in, say, Florida or Arizona, that is equally competitive, given that the components don't require tremendous hand work? Literally, it could be a machine etching or extruding some kind of material with an almost completely automated process.
The people who owned the companies making the stuff wanted to spend less on various other costs such as labor. Apparently it is so cheap to literally build, and setup in a land far away, train people, setup the logistics in that far away land, and then ship everything to and from said far away land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
Because the big money isn’t in manufacturing. That’s largely viewed as a commodity that needs to be done cheaper within reason for price and quality.

The markup is in design, marketing, after market support, ect. I’d rather have the rest of the value chain and the jobs from it.
We can do all that here. Its better for the country as a whole. Means more jobs competing for labor. Nothing should be moved offshore unless there is no room, and especially not for circumventing regulations.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:55 AM
 
Location: NJ
27,847 posts, read 33,020,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
I had a sign business for 26 years, and at the time I closed up in the recession (2008) was paying my last employee $14/hour. About a year before I had a visit from a woman who was offering a service where I would send the artwork (data files) to her people in China who would produce my signs for about 1/3 of what it cost me to make them, and that included shipping. I passed because the turn-around time was too long, but also because I wasn't about to contribute to the loss of jobs here. With electronics, and most every other consumer items, it's hard to compete with other countries that don't have the same labor laws.
kind of interesting that you ended up doing that in 2008 anyway.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:06 AM
 
2,817 posts, read 784,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestEngr View Post
I never said any of that. Look at my posts, I never said what you keep bringing up. Good luck on your evaporation theory of mankind, and if we all evaporate, tell me what is next for the planet? Look, just I never said what you keep saying, you must be thinking of another conversation you had or something, seriously.
I don't think anyone reading our exchange will think any differently, whether I quoted your exact words or not. Your implication that these non-evaporated Japanese companies somehow replaced the jobs their equipment displaced is quite clear, and playing semantic "but I didn't say that" games is for children.

But thanks for playing anyway.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
18,420 posts, read 18,500,674 times
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Hum, how much do you think a Blu Ray DVD-player made in the USA would cost, then compare
that cost with China, you get your answer.
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