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Old 05-28-2020, 11:17 AM
 
8,311 posts, read 7,499,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tickyul View Post
Hum, how much do you think a Blu Ray DVD-player made in the USA would cost, then compare
that cost with China, you get your answer.
If too much, then no one will buy. Then producer will lower price to meet demand. Cost is not the only factor determining price.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Western NY
665 posts, read 718,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
Your implication that these non-evaporated Japanese companies somehow replaced the jobs their equipment displaced is quite clear,
.
I think you are arguing with yourself. Your argument is zero jobs are created, they evaporated. I never once stated how many jobs would return at all, and your insistence I claimed that seems odd and wrong to me. I am not an economist so such a projection like 1 job would return for 1 lost from 1963 or some other date or timeframe is not meaningful.

I make no claim other than if you want to be a leading company in US like Motorola once was, make products in US, and yes many jobs will be created. I make no claims on numbers by some economic theory or foreign hidden interest. It will depend on the company, product acceptance, and much more as to how many jobs. Plus the whole food chain of parts, equipment, R&D, quality, support staff like accountants and much more somehow you discount 100%, well seems odd. So to say I make any claim on exact numbers is your saying I said something. Sounds like you have some sort of side interest or hidden agenda in trying to force no manufacturing be done for some reason in USA. I have no idea why.

I have no debate for you, but to claim zero jobs are done in manufacturing is false. Manufacturing is not like star trek replicators.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:30 AM
 
1,963 posts, read 503,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
If too much, then no one will buy. Then producer will lower price to meet demand. Cost is not the only factor determining price.
It is if price exceeds the manufacturing cost, which needs to be somewhere below a 50% retail wholesale cost, with enough margin for both maker and wholesaler to profit. Disc players settled at about $100 in each generation, meaning manufacturing had to be profitable at $25-30.

NOT going to happen from a US manufacturer.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:40 AM
 
710 posts, read 241,816 times
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This is not about manufacturing, but is still within the topic of "electronics". We do not have high-speed rail yet. Nevertheless, our trains and buses are running on electronic devices and computerized components. Often, when these parts malfunction or break down, they have to be shipped back to the manufacturers at great costs or be written off. One small outfit discovers their immigrant workers are able to troubleshoot the technical problems which are as simple as removing the faulty diodes, transistors or capacitors and soldering replacement parts on to the motherboards. The time taken to troubleshoot and soldering the parts averages 30 minutes. The hourly rate of the immigrant workers is between $20 to $25; the bill to the tax-payer funded transport agency is $300 to $450 per hour and at inflated man-hours. Yes, some of these jobs should come back.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:57 AM
 
1,963 posts, read 503,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orbiter View Post
This is not about manufacturing, but is still within the topic of "electronics". We do not have high-speed rail yet. Nevertheless, our trains and buses are running on electronic devices and computerized components. Often, when these parts malfunction or break down, they have to be shipped back to the manufacturers at great costs or be written off. One small outfit discovers their immigrant workers are able to troubleshoot the technical problems which are as simple as removing the faulty diodes, transistors or capacitors and soldering replacement parts on to the motherboards. The time taken to troubleshoot and soldering the parts averages 30 minutes. The hourly rate of the immigrant workers is between $20 to $25; the bill to the tax-payer funded transport agency is $300 to $450 per hour and at inflated man-hours. Yes, some of these jobs should come back.
This has hardly anything to do with "why the US doesn't make electronics any more."

I'm a bit reminded of an old story about Charles Steinmetz, who billed some huge corporation $10,000 for diagnosing a problem with their new all-electric plant. When the company demanded an itemized bill, it came back "Making Chalk Mark: $1. Knowing Where To Put It: $9,999."
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:29 PM
 
4,516 posts, read 3,907,405 times
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It seems as though Americans today no longer know how to make the hard stuff: the miniaturized electronics, the chips, the light emitters, the motors, the stepdowns, etc. etc.

It's as if we have relegated all the really interesting, intricate work to other countries. Even stuff that's made in USA today is often "assembled in the USA from global components", meaning, the value-added parts, the complicated stuff that takes real brains to design, is made elsewhere, then assembled by (effectively) trained monkeys in a nominally American facility.

Granted that most manufacturing that returns to the U.S. would be highly automated, but then the automation equipment and software needs to be designed, built, and maintained by someone.

Then there are basic components -- screws, bolts, washers, casings, adhesives -- that are partially made offshore now, though some chemicals are still made in the US.

If basic manufacturing of major items returns, then presumably so would components. We have far flung supply chains today, and the question is, can these and will these be re-shored and what would the country look like, should this happen?

Prior to the manufacturing slowdown that started in Q4 2019, the biggest complaint of manufacturers in the U.S. was a lack of manpower. Literally, there are just not enough reliable people to work. To satisfy demand (once past this current lockdown), we are going to have to up the guest worker visa numbers.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Western NY
665 posts, read 718,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orbiter View Post
This is not about manufacturing, but is still within the topic of "electronics". We do not have high-speed rail yet. Nevertheless, our trains and buses are running on electronic devices and computerized components. Often, when these parts malfunction or break down, they have to be shipped back to the manufacturers at great costs or be written off. One small outfit discovers their immigrant workers are able to troubleshoot the technical problems which are as simple as removing the faulty diodes, transistors or capacitors and soldering replacement parts on to the motherboards. The time taken to troubleshoot and soldering the parts averages 30 minutes. The hourly rate of the immigrant workers is between $20 to $25; the bill to the tax-payer funded transport agency is $300 to $450 per hour and at inflated man-hours. Yes, some of these jobs should come back.
Pay no attention to the trolls hiding behind the curtain with hidden agendas.

Mostly what I see is nothing is troubleshooted at all anymore. Be it a $100 consumer product, or a $2000 instrument, or a computerized transportation circuit board. Once broken a new board is ordered. Sometimes they just buy the whole $2000 broken instrument again, or a competing one, if it is super dead rather than hire a engineering tech. We used to have techs do like you mention, just about everywhere I worked in entire career. For 30 minutes work they could repair just about anything but companies also belly-ached about it starting about 15 to 20 years ago. Such as it techs weren't making enough back, it was too hard to support the techs, etc. But these techs also gave feedback that always improved the product line and made future products more reliable so they made up for everything and then some. What you say is very true, the techs are a valuable part of the whole picture.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:45 PM
 
1,963 posts, read 503,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
It seems as though Americans today no longer know how to make the hard stuff:
No, we simply design most of it.

Lord Grantham may want Boeuf Bourginon for dinner, but he certainly isn't going to make it himself (and what's more, probably has no idea how). Nor does it matter; a word to his val-ett and it's on the table that night.

Just to cut to the chase, there is no need for every nation to have every capability. We have the choice of making a de-facto global economy, driven into place by more than greed and treaties, work better and with continual adjustment and improvement, or retreating to a nationalized economic model in which we have less that is more poorly made and costs more.

Sobbing into your iPhone that much high-end manufacture is done elsewhere is pretty self-cancelling.

Last edited by Therblig; 05-28-2020 at 01:10 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Western NY
665 posts, read 718,723 times
Reputation: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post

Prior to the manufacturing slowdown that started in Q4 2019, the biggest complaint of manufacturers in the U.S. was a lack of manpower. Literally, there are just not enough reliable people to work. To satisfy demand (once past this current lockdown), we are going to have to up the guest worker visa numbers.

I have occasionally been involved in student chapters of IEEE, not at moment but in recent past. A few years back one student I talked to frequently was really trying to find work in electronics, after a year of applying he took some job in web development of some kind, can't remember what it involved on the webpages but it was not electronics or manufacturing. Same story all across the US, and why US electrical engineering departments have gone from graduating 100's to multi-100's per year to only graduating handfuls, sometimes just a dozen or so. Not to mention the 35,000 engineers I saw laid off from two adjacent plants a dozen years ago, maybe 1 in 10 is back into electronics. The potential employees are out there. Right now the jobs are not.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:31 PM
 
4,516 posts, read 3,907,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestEngr View Post
I have occasionally been involved in student chapters of IEEE, not at moment but in recent past. A few years back one student I talked to frequently was really trying to find work in electronics, after a year of applying he took some job in web development of some kind, can't remember what it involved on the webpages but it was not electronics or manufacturing. Same story all across the US, and why US electrical engineering departments have gone from graduating 100's to multi-100's per year to only graduating handfuls, sometimes just a dozen or so. Not to mention the 35,000 engineers I saw laid off from two adjacent plants a dozen years ago, maybe 1 in 10 is back into electronics. The potential employees are out there. Right now the jobs are not.
There's less demand for EE's in recent decades, certainly. But what about assembly, QC inspectors, managers, welders, machine tool operators, etc.? A factory might need most if not all of those skills, and these are the kind of people increasingly hard to find.

Maybe it's a chicken-and-egg thing. You can't find someone with 5-10 years experience in inspecting controller boards when no one's making controller boards any more. The people with experience are all in their 70s.
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