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Old Yesterday, 11:54 AM
 
1,980 posts, read 503,478 times
Reputation: 3186

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
What could possibly go wrong?
Actually, there are good reasons to do something about the massive balloon of student debt, over and above any other forms of "relief." It might be that some forgiveness — perhaps percentage based — is an appropriate form of reparations for what we've forced new adults to conform to for the last couple of decades.

If we're going to structure the world so that a degree is needed for every basically entry-level and on-the-job-trained position, we've forced millions and millions of young, naive adults into a college path at any cost so that they will be employable at 23. (And the perpetual war chant, even here, is that anyone unemployable is so because they "didn't work hard enough" or "didn't bother to improve themselves" or such.) Secondary education is no longer an option for those who truly need four or more years of intensive study in a field; it's a period of national service, idly mopping floors to prove you're worth hiring for a job absolutely no candidate knows anything about until they are trained in it.

So we drove this cycle of overloading colleges and the truly first-rank ones still accepted the best for the traditional reasons... while Universities of Southern Midwestern Nowheresville jacked themselves into faux elitism and championship football teams as marketing arms and drastically overloaded campuses at skyrocketing tuition rates... because all these 18yos who didn't want to be unemployed bums had to go somewhere and get into some program that would spit out a sheepskin.

So it's a shared fault, and a shared problem, and needs a shared solution.

What it does for "home ownership" and "entrepreneurship" and other stupid ship is irrelevant. These millions should not have to wear financial shackles for a large part of their careers when in the end, they were our choice for them, not their choice for themselves.

(And no, it doesn't make an effing bit of difference whether the debt is for the finest-kind Systems Architecture degree or the "Underwater Basketweaving" sure to come up in the next three posts.)
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Old Yesterday, 12:07 PM
 
4,519 posts, read 3,907,405 times
Reputation: 10769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
Actually, there are good reasons to do something about the massive balloon of student debt, over and above any other forms of "relief." It might be that some forgiveness — perhaps percentage based — is an appropriate form of reparations for what we've forced new adults to conform to for the last couple of decades.

If we're going to structure the world so that a degree is needed for every basically entry-level and on-the-job-trained position, we've forced millions and millions of young, naive adults into a college path at any cost so that they will be employable at 23. (And the perpetual war chant, even here, is that anyone unemployable is so because they "didn't work hard enough" or "didn't bother to improve themselves" or such.) Secondary education is no longer an option for those who truly need four or more years of intensive study in a field; it's a period of national service, idly mopping floors to prove you're worth hiring for a job absolutely no candidate knows anything about until they are trained in it.

So we drove this cycle of overloading colleges and the truly first-rank ones still accepted the best for the traditional reasons... while Universities of Southern Midwestern Nowheresville jacked themselves into faux elitism and championship football teams as marketing arms and drastically overloaded campuses at skyrocketing tuition rates... because all these 18yos who didn't want to be unemployed bums had to go somewhere and get into some program that would spit out a sheepskin.

So it's a shared fault, and a shared problem, and needs a shared solution.

What it does for "home ownership" and "entrepreneurship" and other stupid ship is irrelevant. These millions should not have to wear financial shackles for a large part of their careers when in the end, they were our choice for them, not their choice for themselves.

(And no, it doesn't make an effing bit of difference whether the debt is for the finest-kind Systems Architecture degree or the "Underwater Basketweaving" sure to come up in the next three posts.)
So in other words, those like myself who worked hard for 9-10 years to pay off our grad school loans are not owed a refund because we're hard working and independent.

Whereas, those who were irresponsible and lazy get bailed out, just because.

Sorry, that's just not going to fly, no matter how you rationalize it and wrap it up in fancy language "reparations" or whatever.
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Old Yesterday, 12:23 PM
 
1,980 posts, read 503,478 times
Reputation: 3186
Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
So in other words, those like myself who worked hard for 9-10 years to pay off our grad school loans are not owed a refund because we're hard working and independent.

Whereas, those who were irresponsible and lazy get bailed out, just because.
I don't know. Maybe something is owed all those who took on huge debt to complete a degree, whether they've been lucky/successful enough to pay it off or not.

But in general (and not necessarily addressing you), the "I succeeded and they didn't and I am thus more worthy" argument doesn't fly in the Empire of Therblig. Any argument that boils down to "I am worthy and they are not" — which is epidemic in the discussions here — marks the poster as an entitled fool in my book. Individuals succeed to varying degrees as much to nonrandom distribution of assets (including privilege) and plain luck as to all those cherished 'Murrican verities.

So an argument that you paid off your debts is neither here nor there on the larger problem, and implying that if you could do it, they can, too... lead balloon, there.

(For reference, we put six kids through college, including a couple of expensive ones. Some grants and scholarships, no loans. This last one may have to self-fund part of a very expensive and demanding senior year, but will likely go from that into a very small pool of very elite positions on sheer ability alone. My ex and I both paid for our own educations, more or less.)
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Old Yesterday, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
1,948 posts, read 2,481,559 times
Reputation: 5631
Did anyone consider that when a bank forgives things like car loans, house loans, charge card debt and student loans that the institution that was defaulted will send the low life a 1099C form and will have to pay tax of the amount that the bank lost. A 1099C is considered normal income and taxes will be owed. There are NO free lunches.
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Old Yesterday, 12:44 PM
 
3,548 posts, read 2,252,435 times
Reputation: 8006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthur View Post
Did anyone consider that when a bank forgives things like car loans, house loans, charge card debt and student loans that the institution that was defaulted will send the low life a 1099C form and will have to pay tax of the amount that the bank lost. A 1099C is considered normal income and taxes will be owed. There are NO free lunches.
Yeah, I considered cancelation of debt income. Do you have a point? The tax cost is at their marginal rate, which is far less than the amount actually owed. It would still be a tremendous benefit to people being allowed to walk away from their debt.
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Old Yesterday, 12:47 PM
 
64 posts, read 29,816 times
Reputation: 178
Go after colleges. they need stick in this game. most colleges caused the problem.
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Old Yesterday, 12:50 PM
 
1,980 posts, read 503,478 times
Reputation: 3186
In reply to several of the above without clutter-quoting: this is not a problem that will be addressed with a single focus, participant or share of the losses. And yes, some of it should fall on both the students and the colleges.
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Old Yesterday, 01:04 PM
 
96 posts, read 25,381 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillie767 View Post
No one is suggesting that learning a trade is easy nor is it a guaranteed money maker. But pushing all high school graduates into college doesn't benefit the student or society. The links are posted are from the union websites. This Old House highlights some of the apprentices working on the project house.

Trades should be considered a viable career path for smart talented young people as an alternative to college. Unfortunately, in the US particularly, trades don't have the bragging appeal that a four year college has. Doubly unfortunate is the low graduation rates from colleges. " On average, just 58 percent of students who started college in the fall of 2012 had earned any degree six years later, according to the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center."

People have to explore all opportunities for advancement. Trades should be an integral part of that discussion.
Well, since the programs here have a waiting list and vocational high school have become very competitive to get into, it looks like the trades are already considered a viable option. Maybe it is regional, but trades have been attracting many people for at least 15-20 years now.
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Old Yesterday, 01:40 PM
 
4,519 posts, read 3,907,405 times
Reputation: 10769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
I don't know. Maybe something is owed all those who took on huge debt to complete a degree, whether they've been lucky/successful enough to pay it off or not.

But in general (and not necessarily addressing you), the "I succeeded and they didn't and I am thus more worthy" argument doesn't fly in the Empire of Therblig. Any argument that boils down to "I am worthy and they are not" — which is epidemic in the discussions here — marks the poster as an entitled fool in my book. Individuals succeed to varying degrees as much to nonrandom distribution of assets (including privilege) and plain luck as to all those cherished 'Murrican verities.

So an argument that you paid off your debts is neither here nor there on the larger problem, and implying that if you could do it, they can, too... lead balloon, there.

(For reference, we put six kids through college, including a couple of expensive ones. Some grants and scholarships, no loans. This last one may have to self-fund part of a very expensive and demanding senior year, but will likely go from that into a very small pool of very elite positions on sheer ability alone. My ex and I both paid for our own educations, more or less.)
Nothing is owed to those who took on a debt. They did it voluntarily. Now, if they were forced at gunpoint to take out loans....
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Old Yesterday, 01:42 PM
 
1,980 posts, read 503,478 times
Reputation: 3186
Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
Nothing is owed to those who took on a debt. They did it voluntarily. Now, if they were forced at gunpoint to take out loans....
You miss my entire point: I believe an entire generation or two was forced at economic gunpoint to take on those debts. As such, the obligation is more than theirs as individuals.
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