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Old 06-19-2020, 03:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
You miss my entire point: I believe an entire generation or two was forced at economic gunpoint to take on those debts. As such, the obligation is more than theirs as individuals.
No, I understood your point. I just don't buy it.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:33 PM
 
3,071 posts, read 1,023,232 times
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Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
No, I understood your point. I just don't buy it.
Your response indicated lack of understanding, not disagreement.

But that's fine. Everyone knows that no one makes a decision due to outside influence of any kind, and is thus wholly and solely responsible for the consequences. Especially, oddly, if they've only experienced positive outcomes. So, absolutely all success and all failure lies with the individual. Period. Congrats and/or tough sh*t, as appropriate.

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Old 06-19-2020, 03:35 PM
 
831 posts, read 595,923 times
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Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
Nothing is owed to those who took on a debt. They did it voluntarily. Now, if they were forced at gunpoint to take out loans....

Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
So in other words, those like myself who worked hard for 9-10 years to pay off our grad school loans are not owed a refund because we're hard working and independent.

Whereas, those who were irresponsible and lazy get bailed out, just because.

Sorry, that's just not going to fly, no matter how you rationalize it and wrap it up in fancy language "reparations" or whatever.

It seems that many of the responses here are overly focused on what they imagine is deserved or owed.

I think the important and useful consideration should be cause and effect utilitarianism. 1. Would taking this action actually have a meaningful positive effect on home ownership and entrepreneurship? 2. And how important are these two things to society at large?

I think the answer to the 2nd question is obvious, so what is most important is the extent of the effect of the 1st question.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:50 PM
 
2,247 posts, read 859,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
So it's a shared fault, and a shared problem, and needs a shared solution.

What it does for "home ownership" and "entrepreneurship" and other stupid ship is irrelevant. These millions should not have to wear financial shackles for a large part of their careers when in the end, they were our choice for them, not their choice for themselves.

...
I don't remember actually making such a choice.
Do you?
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PamelaIamela View Post
I don't remember actually making such a choice.
Do you?
Look under "Freedom of Choice / Simulations Thereof."

List all the realistic "choices" a bright 18yo has regarding his/her future. You might look up Thomas Hobson, while you're at it.
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Old 06-19-2020, 04:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
It seems that many of the responses here are overly focused on what they imagine is deserved or owed.

I think the important and useful consideration should be cause and effect utilitarianism. 1. Would taking this action actually have a meaningful positive effect on home ownership and entrepreneurship? 2. And how important are these two things to society at large?

I think the answer to the 2nd question is obvious, so what is most important is the extent of the effect of the 1st question.
To address your original post: yes, obviously I would agree that forgiving student debt for people who graduated and have decent career prospects would lead to a bump in home ownership.

But you might as well ask: what if the moon were made of dollar bills and some of them fell to earth? It's a fantasy and would never happen, despite rhetoric by some politicians. Too many people are opposed, for good reasons, as some of us have argued in this thread.
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Old 06-19-2020, 05:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
TToo many people are opposed, for good reasons, as some of us have argued in this thread.
Yes. That reason being, in distillation, "Anyone who ran up a debt they can't repay is a loser; they are special losers with oak leaf cluster if they didn't take a degree in a top-ten-employment field."

Got it, O Worthy One.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
17,777 posts, read 14,059,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
To address your original post: yes, obviously I would agree that forgiving student debt for people who graduated and have decent career prospects would lead to a bump in home ownership.

But you might as well ask: what if the moon were made of dollar bills and some of them fell to earth? It's a fantasy and would never happen, despite rhetoric by some politicians. Too many people are opposed, for good reasons, as some of us have argued in this thread.
They could be barking up the wrong tree. Our institutions have sold a 'product' that many now cannot use. We are saying: Buyer Beware. They are saying: Let the taxpayer pay. But should part of the blame not fall on the institutions that sold worthless products? Perhaps it is time to whittle out the useless college courses and maybe shut down some of these institutions to bring them into our present day reality. And, yes as another poster already mentioned, many of our young should have considered working with their hands instead of with their minds.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:33 PM
 
3,071 posts, read 1,023,232 times
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Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
And, yes as another poster already mentioned, many of our young should have considered working with their hands instead of with their minds.
I completely agree. Which is why I put much of the blame on a system that has relentlessly promoted four-year degrees for all, regardless of aptitude or need or employability... to the point where discussions such as this are clogged with those smugly assigning anyone who didn't get a degree — in some narrow high-demand field — as permanent losers who chose to be losers.

How many kids over the last thirty years were going to choose apprenticeship or a trade school or something similar with absolutely the entire country, if not world screaming that they had one and only one choice if they ever wanted to be taken seriously as adults?

And how many brilliant academics did we lose to "four year job tickets," and how many master mechanics and machinists and repair men to a useless slog for a degree that took them nowhere much?

It is to weep. Or to fix. I choose the latter.
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Old 06-19-2020, 06:59 PM
 
5,079 posts, read 4,231,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
They could be barking up the wrong tree. Our institutions have sold a 'product' that many now cannot use. We are saying: Buyer Beware. They are saying: Let the taxpayer pay. But should part of the blame not fall on the institutions that sold worthless products? Perhaps it is time to whittle out the useless college courses and maybe shut down some of these institutions to bring them into our present day reality. And, yes as another poster already mentioned, many of our young should have considered working with their hands instead of with their minds.
Yes definitely the universities are responsible for this mess. Forgiving the loans now would just encourage them to keep raising tuition rates.
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