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Old 06-24-2020, 07:47 PM
 
Location: moved
9,576 posts, read 5,899,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westender View Post
LOL -- I was going to postulate "high prole" but wasn't sure how many fellow C-D forum readers were familiar with Fussell's formulations.

Pleasantly surprised that his book still is so widely known.
The plurality of America is arguably high (or not so high?) Prole, especially after 40 years of "Prole drift".

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueherons View Post
It's all about the money, honey.

The more money, the higher your social status.
This is false. A person might have $10M in the stock market, and nevertheless be regarded as an eyesore and a disgrace. Behavior, people-skills, general comportment - all matter enormously. How we interact with others, redounds greatly to our social status.
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Old 06-24-2020, 08:17 PM
 
1,922 posts, read 715,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanLB View Post
Wow... first off, no it is not "demonstrably untrue" that anyone can succeed. If you mean, "It's not true that a total moron with no IQ and no education can succeed," sure, I'll give you that. You can't be a mental midget and achieve success, anywhere in the world, never have been, never will, because your lot in life is to be at the bottom since you're literally genetically inept. In fact, that's a GOOD thing, you certainly shouldn't be able to achieve any level of success if you're just stupid. That being said, it's entirely possible for anyone of any social status growing up to achieve great fortune and success in the U.S., always has been. My dad came from a family with 8 kids, he inherited nothing whatsoever, he worked from the time he was 7 years old picking berries in the field, washed neighborhood cars, did every menial job you can imagine from night shift restocking a freezer section at a grocery store to automotive assistant to retail and he managed to build a business empire spanning the West Coast. I love it when someone says you can't pull yourself up by the bootstraps -- YOU can't, sure, I'll never question your ineptitude, but other people can, absolutely, and have done so.

As for the comment before, also made me laugh out loud. Dude, do you actually think the top 1% is some big deal? Some unseen group of elites? It's not a big deal, it's 1%, we are not unseen. I'm easily top 1%, and I shop at Target, I go to the same stores you go to, I look for the deals, I eat out at family restaurants like Applebee's and Buffalo Wild Wings (though I think it's a bit expensive for what it is!), my best friend is a police officer, my life is just a normal life associating with mostly middle class and upper middle class people, though I have friends who are much less well off than that. The only wealthy people I know are through my dad, I don't personally have any wealthy friends, though my doctor friend could be the closest. The top 1% doesn't have ANYWHERE near enough money to have a private jet (though my dad does, and he's top 0.1%), heck I can't afford to take first class! Have you seen the prices of a first class trip internationally? We're talking about $8,000 to London! Yeah, I don't think so. I could travel first class around the U.S., I guess, but why would I spend 4x as much money or 5x as much money for that? Money has value to me, I don't waste it and throw it away on stupid things. You'll find me right next to you traveling coach like everyone else, and taking few vacations because it costs a lot of money to travel, and you'll look over on the road and see my 8 year old car that I intend to drive another 7 years minimum because cars are a terrible investment and a depreciating asset.

I think some people have this odd vision of someone in the top 1% living high on the hog, but that's just not reality for most people. I can afford to have a way nicer house than most people, large unexpected expenses don't phase me, but that's about the extent of it, I try to keep my actual spending firmly in the middle class at around $5,500/month for both my wife and I combined, and that includes paying our own health insurance since we're both self-employed. Once the mortgage is gone in a few years, that'll drop to $4,500, which is hardly a crazy spend for a married couple. More than 10% of that is the property tax bill.
Great post.
1%? Very nice but not what most sub-median people think it is.
Heck, the top 5% in income+wealth in US is usually enough to get you in the 1% in the world!
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Old 06-24-2020, 08:29 PM
 
7,973 posts, read 4,487,887 times
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Here's another couple of things to throw in that mix. It highly depends on where you are in the country and where the individuals you mention are from.

For example, the micropolitan (I love that word) community where I live, would consider both of them in the same class and pretty much the same class as most of the community.

On the other hand, let's take someone from the South, with perhaps a deep accent. Anywhere he or she goes in the country, they will be considered an ignorant hillbilly by most of the rest of the population. Might be a PhD physicist or world class surgeon, or, at the time, world's wealthiest business man, but will be regarded as dumb by the "educated elite" on the coasts. The last actually happened. Years ago my dad was in marketing and set up a meeting between a Arkansas store owner and the New York executives of the company he worked for. They refused to take the meeting with that hillbilly. A few years later they were begging to get their product into Walmart.
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Old 06-25-2020, 09:24 AM
 
4,942 posts, read 12,446,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon652 View Post
My question is related to social STATUS in the USA. I'm sure many of you are aware of all the common categories (income, education, profession etc.) that experts evaluate to create a general census regarding how to determine social CLASS in the USA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social..._United_States

First, I'm wonder if anyone knows anything regarding how much weight each category play's in determining social class. What I mean is that I'm aware that there is no concrete matrix that every expert goes by. However, they all generally agree on what factor's determine social class. So is there a general consensus among experts regarding which categories have more "weight" in determining who is of a higher class in US society?

For example, are there professions that hold such weight that regardless of income that individual will always be held as an "upper class/upper middle class?" Or the opposite. Are there professions that have such low status that regardless of income a person will always be considered at best "middle class" when holding such jobs?

Second, based on the above information, what is your personal opinion (or opinion based on what you learned from what the experts say) on who would hold more esteem/respect/admiration (as in social STATUS) between the following two individuals among the majority of common Americans (as in not the experts) if evaluating these two solely on the information below?
---------------------------

Individual #1: A 39 year old ADN Nurse (2 year Associate's degree) who works at a hospital making $45K/year. However, she has made outside investments that nets her an additional yearly passive income of $155K/yr. Making her total yearly income $200K. Her net worth is $1.2 Million.

Or

Individual #2: The 49 year old director of operations at the same hospital making $140K/year. However, this individual holds a Phd in business management and a Masters in Economics. His networth is $900K.
I take it you are not from the U.S. ??

What you lay out/ask is not how it is here.
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Old 06-25-2020, 09:32 AM
 
7,724 posts, read 3,648,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimtheGuy View Post
I take it you are not from the U.S. ??

What you lay out/ask is not how it is here.
Yes, it is.


Social class (or "status") is determined by factors that are roughly correlated with money (whether income or assets) but are different from money. Anyone who denies this is just trying to construct a narrative they're more comfortable with.
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Old 06-25-2020, 11:40 AM
 
1,818 posts, read 541,994 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Yes, it is.


Social class (or "status") is determined by factors that are roughly correlated with money (whether income or assets) but are different from money. Anyone who denies this is just trying to construct a narrative they're more comfortable with.
True. Things like -- esoteric investments i.e, art work and employing money for societal good, i.e., foundations, endowments, patron of the arts.
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Old 06-25-2020, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Ohio
22,141 posts, read 15,454,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon652 View Post
My question is related to social STATUS in the USA.
It's an out-dated artificial construct created by religion of all things.

Aside from the Media, Intelligentsia and Blue-Bloods, no one is actually concerned with class.

For your typical American, that kind of thinking went out the window decades ago.

While Americans, at least the intelligent ones, are focused on self-improvement and whatever comforts they might want, they are not focused on class.
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Old 06-25-2020, 11:56 AM
 
Location: moved
9,576 posts, read 5,899,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Social class (or "status") is determined by factors that are roughly correlated with money (whether income or assets) but are different from money. Anyone who denies this is just trying to construct a narrative they're more comfortable with.
Of course there’s strong correlation between social status and financial wherewithal. But your own earlier post illustrates the tentative and conditional nature of that correlation. A rich country bumpkin is still a country bumpkin. His children, sent to boarding-school and commensurate universities, would have better chance to “rise”… and especially the grandchildren, and so on… assuming that the dynasty can retain its pecuniary good-fortune.

But “social status” differs from “class”. In an elite boarding-school, catering to sons of the aristocracy, everyone is of “high” class. But the scrawny, nerdy kid who gets bullied, is of low social status. If said kid grows up deeply scarred, becomes reclusive, insular and poorly socialized, he’ll fail to exert influence, to garner a following, to partake of the strong connections available to elites… and so, despite considerable wealth, large vocabulary and the “correct” pronunciation and so forth, would be of comparatively lower social status, than the working-class kid who makes $20/hour at the factory, but who’s steward of his union-shop.
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Old 06-25-2020, 12:25 PM
Status: "Biding my time." (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Warwick, RI
3,196 posts, read 4,316,738 times
Reputation: 5322
A lot of the answers I've read in this thread are pure nonsense. It amazes me that so many of you I'm sure would have huge problems with racial or sexist stereotypes, but have no problem using stereotypical terms when referring to "class". What a bunch of hypocrites.

In the USA, you are what you earn, save and behave. And by earn, I don't mean income, I mean what you work for. Even people in this country with minimal formal education can work harder, save more and behave much better than most of those born into luxury. I know because I'm one of them. I'm not rich by any means, but I've done pretty well in life because I was raised to work hard, take advantages of opportunities, and save my money instead of squandering it. In this country, you deserve nothing, and you aren't owed anything by anybody simply because you passed through an American birth canal. You are what you work, earn and save, and how you behave helps determine that. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:

“Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry his own weight, this is a frightening prospect.”

― Eleanor Roosevelt

Last edited by treasurekidd; 06-25-2020 at 12:38 PM..
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Old 06-25-2020, 12:44 PM
 
7,724 posts, read 3,648,259 times
Reputation: 21982
Quote:
Originally Posted by treasurekidd View Post
A lot of the answers I've read in this thread are pure nonsense. It amazes me that so many of you I'm sure would have huge problems with racial or sexist stereotypes, but have no problem using stereotypical terms when referring to "class". What a bunch of hypocrites.

In the USA, you are what you earn, save and behave. And by earn, I don't mean income, I mean what you work for. Even people in this country with minimal formal education can work harder, save more and behave much better than most of those born into luxury. I know because I'm one of them. I'm not rich by any means, but I've done pretty well in life because I was raised to work hard, take advantages of opportunities, and save my money instead of squandering it. In this country, you deserve nothing, and you aren't owed anything by anybody simply because you passed through an American birth canal. You are what you work, earn and save, and how you behave helps determine that. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:

“Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry his own weight, this is a frightening prospect.”

― Eleanor Roosevelt
So you're telling me there would be no problem for you to drive up to the oldest country club in your state and get a membership? That your wife can join Junior League in your town, purely on the basis of your being successful, hard working, morally upright people? Your son, should he be admitted to Yale, would be a shoo-in for Skull and Bones purely because he's a successful hard-working, morally upright son of successful, hard-working, morally upright parents?


Nope.


Social class is alive and well in America. And every other nation, state, county, city, and neighborhood on the face of the Earth.
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