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Old 07-11-2020, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis, East Side
3,040 posts, read 2,351,794 times
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Are you saying that Amtrak has unused track because the track needs maintenance? And that using this track would benefit--who? It seems like a railway mostly for tourists--anyone traveling for business would drive or fly. It should be privately owned and maintained by the investors and passengers.

Most cities already have a public transportation system of buses. There's no track to build and maintain; routes can be changed.

As to developing the Great Lakes and Finger Lakes area of New York, that area is losing population. It's a beautiful tourist spot--but again, investors and the tourists to that area should pay for upgrades if they want them. The state of New York needs to fix its regulations and finances to make itself a desirable place for business if that's what their government wants to attract.
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Old 07-11-2020, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Western NY
732 posts, read 963,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
Good idea. Let's also repair/replace our many bridges and dams in poor condition, and start a project to get high-speed internet access available in every small town in America.

Infrastructure projects are expensive upfront, but pay big dividends on the back end.

I am right there, that is the way to go. We have many bridges and roads in bad shape, dams too, place to start for sure. Someday a Tsunami could hit Pacific coast, could prep for it somehow. Lots of good things to do.
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Old 07-11-2020, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis, East Side
3,040 posts, read 2,351,794 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestEngr View Post
I am right there, that is the way to go. We have many bridges and roads in bad shape, dams too, place to start for sure. Someday a Tsunami could hit Pacific coast, could prep for it somehow. Lots of good things to do.
We have streets in Indianapolis--and other places in the Rust Belt, no doubt--that haven't been repaved in decades.
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Old 07-11-2020, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
25,119 posts, read 16,126,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
It's more politically poplular than its given credit for, that's why. When they try to end it, enough local interests clamor to save it just a while longer. There's usually a big enough combination of Democrats and Western state Republicans to save it.

Ironically Amtrak was created to the squiggly light bulb of transportation - a transition. Nixon meant for it to let the passenger rail business phase out quietly with minimal political blowback. Ironically it got its fans and still holds on to this day.

https://www.wired.com/story/trump-budget-amtrak-nixon/

It also pays 94% of its operating costs. Sonits operating subsidy isn't very much. Its big problem is its maintenance backlog.
repairs and maintenance aren't part of operating costs? What about capital improvements - do the trains need replacing? Higher-speed, lower-fuel consumption options?
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Old 07-11-2020, 08:45 PM
 
1,959 posts, read 1,290,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheerbliss View Post
Why does Amtrak even exist?

If I wanted to go to Chicago, times and prices of Amtrak and the Megabus would be similar.
If I wanted to go to Nashville, the Megabus would be a lot faster and cheaper.

To Atlanta, the Megabus is two hours faster and a fraction of the price. Flying would be cheaper than Amtrak.
SheerBliss, I’m a populist. We believe that we all do better when we all do better. You may perceive no net benefit from an updated U.S. Railroads as any significant benefit to yourself, and likely it would require some additional federal and state subsidy of Amtrak that would be of some comparatively small increase of your governments’ expenditures.

The railroads perceive no reasonable chance of recovering the additional cost if they updated their tracks and supporting technology. Hey, the factories that shipped and received large volume bulk cargo are no longer in the USA. They couldn’t compete with cheaper imported products.
Tracks are left to rust. Whatever shipping and receiving is done for remaining domestic producer s of all types of goods, (e.g. agricultural, mining, manufacturing, ranching, etcetera), is more expensive than otherwise, and the USA continues to lose goods producing facilities, jobs and wages.
I’m a proponent for the proposed USA global trade policy described within Wikipedia’s “Import Certificates” article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_certificates .

If Amtrak were to undertake updating and operating USA’s railroad tracks and supporting technology, USA’s passenger and freight would move much safer and at lesser cost. This would bolster USA’s annual GDPs, numbers of jobs and their wages more than otherwise. We, all of us to the extent that we benefit from an improved USA economy, (all of us) do better when our economy does better.

Respectfully, Supposn
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Old 07-11-2020, 09:48 PM
 
9,576 posts, read 7,269,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
If Amtrak were to undertake updating and operating USA’s railroad tracks and supporting technology, USA’s passenger and freight would move much safer and at lesser cost. This would bolster USA’s annual GDPs, numbers of jobs and their wages more than otherwise. We, all of us to the extent that we benefit from an improved USA economy, (all of us) do better when our economy does better.
Amtrak owns a very small fraction of the tracks they run on, mainly in the northeast BOS-WAS corridor, you really think the major railroads (BNSF, CSX, Norfolk Southern, Union Pacific, etc.) are going to let Amtrak take over the tracks they own?

Amtrak would have to build their own entire brand new network, which would probably take trillions and trillions of dollars, which doesn't grow on trees. Have you seen how amazingly overbudget and behind schedule the California HSR is?
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Old 07-11-2020, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,892 posts, read 14,079,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Jetgraphics, your post contradicts itself. [NO, it doesn't.] You contend the inadequate maintenance and updating of our public infrastructures is due to “government meddling” and you regard those infrastructures as net beneficial to our economy and society? You attribute much, (or are you implying a majority?) of our nations’ most economically critically beneficial infrastructures were created by essentially only non-government investment and support?

I’m among those contending the majority of those most economically critically beneficial infrastructures would not have been created (and may likely would not have and possibly not now exist), if they were not supported by some government funding or risk of government’s credit status. [Not true] The inadequacy of our needed public infrastructures is due to inadequate government support of such public infrastructures. Specifically, that’s why USA’s rail and waterway transportation systems are comparatively 2’nd or 3d rate.

Respectfully, Supposn
Perhaps you are unaware of the long history of private ownership of the infrastructure, that was later confiscated by the "Progressives" (Communists).
Prior to the 20th century, most if not all infrastructure was privately owned, operated and maintained without tax monies.
[] Roads [] Highways [] Ferries [] Bridges [] Canals [] Trains [] Streetcars

Example of private infrastructure converted to public:
https://www.timesleader.com/archive/...iver151085/amp
FREE TO CROSS
1908 A.D.
“The Luzerne County Commissioners had bought the bridge for $165,000 and would soon buy many others throughout the county, ending the time-honored practice of letting private companies build bridges and then operate them for profit.”
- - -
"Free to cross the river" wasn't really free, after all.
(TANSTAAFL)

However, after 1913, and the institution of a widespread income tax, the long slow decline of private enterprise was initiated.
It especially hit the streetcars and interurbans, because they were taxed higher and higher but were forced by contracts to get permission for fare hikes from local government. When those fare hikes were denied, the companies began to decline or go bust. And often those that remained, were taken over by the "magnanimous" public officials who [bleeped] them in the first place.

NYC's socialist thief in chief

The Third Rail - Back to the Future - page 1
The End of Innovation

New York City politics was not standing still, however. Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, who had taken office in 1933, was no friend of streetcars, of elevated lines, or of private ownership of transit. He pressed relentlessly for “Unification,” the City takeover of the BMT and IRT. The IRT was happy to go out of business but the BMT fought almost to the last.
After taking over the private companies, not only did the innovations of the BMT end, but the City lost its taste for subway building. The IND “Second System” of 1929 remains unbuilt. The private lines that attracted IND competition were abandoned, several immediately and more as the years went on.
. . .
Unlike most other nations, our heavy rail and rights of way were privately owned - and taxed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak
... railroads carried a substantial tax burden. A World War II era excise tax of 15% on passenger rail travel survived until 1962. Local governments, far from providing needed support to passenger rail, viewed rail infrastructure as a ready source for property tax revenues. In one extreme example, in 1959, the Great Northern Railway, which owned about a third of one percent (0.34%) of the land in Lincoln County, Montana, was assessed more than 91% of all school taxes in the county. To this day, railroads are generally taxed at a higher rate than other industries, and the rates vary greatly from state to state.
. . .
So our private rail systems were taxed into bankruptcy, while taxpayers subsidized their competition in buses, trucks (running on tax payer subsidized paved roads), airlines, and so on.
. . .
As you may well know, the most efficient form of land transportation is steel wheel on steel rail (see: Laws of Physics, and co:efficient of rolling resistance). Yet, thanks to the conspiracy between government and competitors of the auto/oil/pavement hegemony, our world wide lead in rail was utterly destroyed, and now, we're hostage to the most WASTEFUL form of land transport, that drains 25-30% of the GDP to operate. And as you mentioned before, the collapsing infrastructure illustrates the pitiful job being done by public servants.
...
Science of Railway Locomotion
At the same constant speed, on level ground, drawing the same load, any steel wheeled railway vehicle already in motion, will use only 5% (1/20) of the energy consumed by any large pneumatic tire road vehicle already in motion. Upon starting and initial acceleration, any steel wheeled railway vehicle will only use 10% (1/10) of the energy demanded by any large pneumatic tire road vehicle.
Do you see a problem?
Corrupt government helped destroy a transportation system that used 95% less energy to move cargo and passengers. It penalized the good, and subsidized the bad. And their only remedy is for us to pay them more - in taxes - to fix their mess they made.
DUMB.



Taken for a Ride (documentary)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-I8GDklsN4
....


https://www.city-data.com/forum/56889148-post22.html
https://www.city-data.com/forum/47896298-post27.html

Last edited by jetgraphics; 07-11-2020 at 10:29 PM..
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Old 07-11-2020, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,892 posts, read 14,079,889 times
Reputation: 16598
THE FUTURE IS FRUGAL
When cheap and plentiful fossil fuels become expensive and scarce, it will be common sense to consume the least amount of fuel to move cargo and passengers. One of the cheapest modes of transport is by water. On land, it's rail, as in steel wheel on steel rail.
. . .
Taking the long view, it's more sensible to plan to use less energy and do more with it, than hope for some engineering breakthrough that provides inexpensive and plentiful power. Frankly, if ever we did have such unlimited power, we would do more harm to ourselves - just from the waste heat of our mechanical devices.
. . .
I believe it would be more beneficial to get government entirely out of the way.
Governments instituted to secure rights - adjudicate disputes, prosecute criminals, and defend against all enemies, foreign or domestic - is fine.
ANYTHING ELSE IS SUSPECT.
. . .
That being said, one can predict that once ALL TAXES AND REGULATIONS are removed from American labor and industry, there will be a SONIC BOOM from returning expatriate industries.
IN addition, there would no longer be any advantage to hiring illegal aliens "under the table" - which means no more allure to breach our borders for gain.
And with the demise of socialism, there would no longer be any 'freebies' to attract 'anchor babies' to be born here by foreign nationals.

Current aggregate taxes take 44% of the GDP (local, state and federal taxes), leaving the poor worker with only 56% if that. Ending all socialist taxes on labor and industry will give workers an immediate RAISE, as well as more buying power, as the tax shift inflation drains from the economy.

With more to spend, means more demand, which means more production, more jobs, and we get a BOOM economy.
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Old 07-11-2020, 11:16 PM
 
1,959 posts, read 1,290,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjseliga View Post
Amtrak owns a very small fraction of the tracks they run on, mainly in the northeast BOS-WAS corridor, you really think the major railroads (BNSF, CSX, Norfolk Southern, Union Pacific, etc.) are going to let Amtrak take over the tracks they own?

Amtrak would have to build their own entire brand new network, which would probably take trillions and trillions of dollars, which doesn't grow on trees. Have you seen how amazingly overbudget and behind schedule the California HSR is?
CJSeliga, your assumptions are unlikely to play out as you suggest. Why wouldn’t the railroads exchange their tracks for Amtrak bonds backed by the federal government and further collateralized by the real estate, tracks and all associated technical signal and control devices they sold to Amtrak? They gain the interest from those bonds and individually cease paying the expenses of maintaining and updating their tracks and controlling the traffic; their trains will run faster and safer; their current costs will be the tolls for their trains actual individual use of the tracks. It’s a win for the railroads, for their passenger and freight customers, and for our nation’s net economy.

Respectfully, Supposn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Let’s update our nation’s rail, river, and canal transportation.

U.S. federal and state’s governments subsidize Amtrak, a quasi-government corporation; Its entire stock is owned by the federal government and it operates less than 800 miles of track nation-wide. Amtrak doesn’t own some of the track it operates.

USA’s railroads are 2nd or 3d rate in comparison to railroads of many other nations. USA’s passenger and freight trains move much slower and much less safely. There’s need for greater subsidy to update our roadbeds, signal and control technology. I would suppose the railroad corporations and our nation’s economy would benefit if railroad corporations and/or states owned sidings, rail yards, and stations; (stations are in effect similar to a siding or a rail yard). But Amtrak would own and controlled all, or almost all the tracks they operate.

Amtrak would control traffic somewhat in the manner as FAA administrates and controls air traffic. They’d operate the tracks in a similar manner as toll roads are operated. If a state chooses not to fully contribute their share per mile attributed to maintaining the tracks and supporting technology of Amtrak tracks within their jurisdictions, their intrastate traffic will be charged a compensating higher toll rate per mile.

Amtrak’s decisions to subsidize the building of additional and/or parallel modern high-speed rights-of-way would be determined primarily by the need for safety and the second consideration for likelihood of eventually recovering the additional cost and interest being invested within portions of Amtrak routes within the states jurisdictions. The additional costs of exceptionally high-speed routes would justify greater toll rates charged to higher-speed traffic.
States disagreeing with Amtrak’s decisions regarding building or updating routes, could issue their own bonds to greater subsidize the creation or updating of sections or entire routes within their jurisdictions. The increased toll revenues derived from those portions of routes subsidized by additional state bonds, would be earmarked to first repay those state bond holders. …
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Old 07-11-2020, 11:39 PM
 
1,959 posts, read 1,290,042 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Perhaps you are unaware of the long history of private ownership of the infrastructure, that was later confiscated by the "Progressives" (Communists).
Prior to the 20th century, most if not all infrastructure was privately owned, operated and maintained without tax monies. ...
Jetgraphis, I’m aware of some fools believing the United States federal government should or would “confiscate’ private property without reasonable compensating payment and due processes of law. I don’t suppose you are one among such fools.

Respectfully, Supposn
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