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That's a fair question. Here's an attempt at a fair answer, without delving too far into politics.
Aggressive response to the pandemic incurs a cost. So does ostrich head-in-sand-obliviousness. The one or the opposing extreme are probably both unwise. The best course is somewhere in the middle - but where? That is subjective, and depends on our particular values and situation. From what I've seen, the views articulated by the hard-right - however predicated on, shall we say, breezy assumptions - result in conclusions with which I agree. What are these? (1) It's better to err on the side of adventurism, rather than caution; (2) closures and other such measures, incur a nontrivial cost in surrendered privileges or even rights; (3) the ultimate cost in lost lives and diminished health, is not infinite, but can be assigned an approximate (maybe with large error bounds?) dollar figure.
As concerns the article by James Altucher, linked above, we behold a devastating loss - in treasure, livelihood and dignity - in NYC. How many lost-lives is that worth? I don't know. But I don't think that the "correct" number is zero.
I like your posts a lot but this is so broad as to border on insulting.
If you take a look at most big metros and big cities the areas being very hard hit by Covid-19 in most cases are typified by left to very leftwing voting patterns.
FE take a look at hot spots - current and past - in NYC, Northern New Jersey, Dallas, Atlanta, LA etc.
I agree fully. The first line below is not mine.
**Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
I much rather live in an area that took the science seriously than an area that denies the effectiveness of masks.
Liberals. Big Cities. Higher Covid risks. Mask wearers.
Conservatives. Small towns. Lower Covid risks. Mask deniers.
Of course just general tendencies.
We are up in Portland from rural AZ for the summer. The above differences could not be more dramatic.**
That's a fair question. Here's an attempt at a fair answer, without delving too far into politics.
Aggressive response to the pandemic incurs a cost. So does ostrich head-in-sand-obliviousness. The one or the opposing extreme are probably both unwise. The best course is somewhere in the middle - but where? That is subjective, and depends on our particular values and situation. From what I've seen, the views articulated by the hard-right - however predicated on, shall we say, breezy assumptions - result in conclusions with which I agree. What are these? (1) It's better to err on the side of adventurism, rather than caution; (2) closures and other such measures, incur a nontrivial cost in surrendered privileges or even rights; (3) the ultimate cost in lost lives and diminished health, is not infinite, but can be assigned an approximate (maybe with large error bounds?) dollar figure.
As concerns the article by James Altucher, linked above, we behold a devastating loss - in treasure, livelihood and dignity - in NYC. How many lost-lives is that worth? I don't know. But I don't think that the "correct" number is zero.
The reason it is what it is, is medically based. Politics is what takes it elsewhere in this country.
Medicine will always tend to err on the side of caution. 'First do no harm' is no casual slogan. Unless backs are against the wall and it is a do or die situation.
So earlier in the year all the medical communities in the world began prepping for potential doom, and that set the stage. Many communities knew they weren't going to be hit right off the bat. Like our smaller rural area. But we had to prep, and we did not know how long that would take. Or how or when we would be hit.
Liberals/Dems tend to line up with science and medicine, and that is that!
I do believe that you have things a bit mixed up. Or of course your experience may be very different than mine. I just retired, but still keep in contact. And have plenty of time to read about Covid 19 as well as engage in political discussions.
Almost all the recent political hubbub, those not wearing masks, those denying science for instance have nothing against the HC teams and docs. This was recently true in my small conservative AZ town, and is true here in big city liberal Portland, where my daughter practices. It is indeed pathetic IMO, but not generally directed towards us docs out in practice. Though on these sorts of forums you might get some disrespect based on the politics you express. Right now Pandemic related medical opinions of course join much more closely with Dems/liberals. And these truths are very hard for the Right to digest at this point in time.
If the hospitals are begging the citizens to socially distance and mask up, and the citizens say no, what is that?
The big cities are crowded, so they got hit, and then people wore masks and enacted mandates Ti drive the infection rates down. Meanwhile in rural America people carried on like nothing was happening and now those small hospitals are going through hell.
I have a buddy from med school who went AD USAF and is in the midst of a FEMA tasking to that rural America and he simply cannot believe how hard the staff are working while the local population largely carries on as if nothing is wrong and his patients act surprised as they are being hospitalized for CoVID19 seven months into the pandemic.
I’m not thrilled with my areas response either, thankfully corporate America stepped up to protect public health, but once this all calms down I’m headed to an area that didn’t call science a hoax because the next pandemic isn’t likely going to be this mild and I just won’t go through this nonsense again.
**Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
I much rather live in an area that took the science seriously than an area that denies the effectiveness of masks.
Liberals. Big Cities. Higher Covid risks. Mask wearers.
Conservatives. Small towns. Lower Covid risks. Mask deniers.
Of course just general tendencies.
We are up in Portland from rural AZ for the summer. The above differences could not be more dramatic.**
If the hospitals are begging the citizens to socially distance and mask up, and the citizens say no, what is that?
The big cities are crowded, so they got hit, and then people wore masks and enacted mandates Ti drive the infection rates down. Meanwhile in rural America people carried on like nothing was happening and now those small hospitals are going through hell.
I have a buddy from med school who went AD USAF and is in the midst of a FEMA tasking to that rural America and he simply cannot believe how hard the staff are working while the local population largely carries on as if nothing is wrong and his patients act surprised as they are being hospitalized for CoVID19 seven months into the pandemic.
I’m not thrilled with my areas response either, thankfully corporate America stepped up to protect public health, but once this all calms down I’m headed to an area that didn’t call science a hoax because the next pandemic isn’t likely going to be this mild and I just won’t go through this nonsense again.
I think I said that I'm from conservative small town AZ. We are a retirement community and by and large our seniors behave. The forces to mask are just not that strong among the younger crowd. And after our premature and overly broad Memorial Day opening, things got tough there for a while. Now ramping downward.
I'm in Portland for the summer, and maybe we'll become snowbirds. Most everyone properly masks here, and even the gyms are open with precautions in place.
I think I said that I'm from conservative small town AZ. We are a retirement community and by and large our seniors behave. The forces to mask are just not that strong among the younger crowd. And after our premature and overly broad Memorial Day opening, things got tough there for a while. Now ramping downward.
I'm in Portland for the summer, and maybe we'll become snowbirds. Most everyone properly masks here, and even the gyms are open with precautions in place.
Where would you go?
In the states? Seattle.
But Canada seems like it’s the best bet. Since SARS they have purposely built their hospitals to be used for pandemic response.
But Canada seems like it’s the best bet. Since SARS they have purposely built their hospitals to be used for pandemic response.
Good deal.
After each and successive past potential pandemics we docs met, had meetings, and then someone up the line would drop the ball. I would hope that this time around we will learn and then do our planning right. Next time it could be like Ebola.
The reason it is what it is, is medically based. Politics is what takes it elsewhere in this country.
Medicine will always tend to err on the side of caution. 'First do no harm' is no casual slogan. Unless backs are against the wall and it is a do or die situation.
So earlier in the year all the medical communities in the world began prepping for potential doom, and that set the stage. Many communities knew they weren't going to be hit right off the bat. Like our smaller rural area. But we had to prep, and we did not know how long that would take. Or how or when we would be hit.
Liberals/Dems tend to line up with science and medicine, and that is that!
Well, that's the essence of it... "do no harm" is "do no harm physiologically". If killing Little Johnny saves a good chunk of coin, well, that's contrary to the Hippocratic Oath, right? The priority will be on saving Little Johnny, costs be damned.
So, a decision might be rational, straightforward and ethically self-evident from a medical viewpoint, but not from, ahem, other viewpoints. Well, one can espouse such an "alternative" viewpoint out of ignorance of the science - where ignorance includes willful refusal to treat known science seriously. Or, one can understand the science well-enough, and nevertheless make different choices. Our friends over in the hard-right largely fall into the former category. I fall into the latter.
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