Why "We need more vocational training" is stupid - explained via math (2013, money)

[orbiter]

Originally Posted by ocnjgirl

As I said, there are many more kids that want to go then there are schools. My great nephew was not able to get into our county’s vo-tech high school because so many kids applied that they had to use a lottery system to select them. One vocational high school in a county of half a million people. We need more of them, IMO. The thread OP is against having more of them regardless of demand.

I notice you keep pooh-poohing everyone’s career suggestions, however you are not offering any alternative to vocational training for kids that aren’t going to college either. I just don’t understand the argument that they shouldn’t have a non-college path as an option. Of course any parent should help their child research any training vs just taking a course blindly, but to say they shouldn’t have the opportunity to learn a trade because you don’t think they are worthwhile is a bit arrogant sounding in a “let them eat cake” sort of way.

My job in therapy is hard on my body too (lots of morbidly obese people to try to stand up). Some degree jobs are hard on your body. Some vocational trades are not hard on your body. Again you keep responding as if the only things that they will train for are construction type trades, but there are a lot of things they teach in vocational schools these days and not all of them make you a cripple by age 50 (a lot have been mentioned by others but you ignore them). Sitting on your butt for eight or nine hours a day isn’t healthy either by the way. My fiancé, who installs tile mostly for commercial buildings is not union makes a heck of a lot more than $15 an hour, and if he didn’t know how to do this he would probably be working at AutoZone or something. It’s not like if he didn’t do this he would’ve become a doctor.

This.
Those kids with BA, BBA working in sales and banks in better times, if not still out of employment, have switched to garages and DoorDash.

[ddeemo]

Originally Posted by Durpie

" In Ocean City, some of the biggest beachfront houses being to people who OWN electrician, plumbing, contracting businesses."

What does being an owner of a business have to do with being a tradesman? I'm sure an owner of a McDonalds also has a bigger house then the person flipping burgers. Whats your point? The vast majority of tradesmen who try to start their own businesses lose everything. This is a common example of people going out of their way to mislead and glorify the trades by throwing out unrealistic examples that represent less than 1% of the "tradesmen".

Who is glorifying anything you ask? The media and most people on this forum. You can search the threads yourself.

Actually to own an electrician, plumbing or contracting business a person is essentially required to be a Master Electrician, Master Plumber or a General Contractor in most states because of the permit processes - a tradesman has to have years of experience working for someone else to be able to become a Master or General Contractor. Even if they only work for someone else, many trades earn an salary over $60K.

[Johnhw2]

I see the demand for skilled trades workers going up based upon new function and complexities required to meet current environmental driven standards. Even simple things like a washing machine is more complex and going ot demand more maintenance and more manufacturing as the life span of washing machines drop. Construction trade will grow too if we build these manufacturing facilities here, The same growth in complexity and demand is going on in HVAC as well. So not only more demand for repair folks but they need more electrical skills as the control board is driving more and more of appliance functions.

Demographics can drive the need for more skills training if we are not replacing the retiring expert skills staff.

The question is more complex than OP claims in his wordy post. But we can estimate the number of skills needed and gear up to train them but more importantly identify the good candidates for skills training. We do not want them all to be come Wind mill and Drone repair men do we lol

We need to work as a society to remove the stigma of a trade school vs a college education to reflect the realities of which might be the better career for many citizens. Getting the right ones to go to trade skill will be easier if we can progress this stigma reduction

OP good topic. warrants the discussion you triggered good job

[mathjak107]

I went to apex technical school the first year it opened in the 1970’s ....I borrowed more money to go then I ever thought I could pay back .

I became a hvac tech and it gave me a great 40 year career as I morphed in to other related careers ....

Never had a need for a college degree .

[Huckleberry3911948]

Not so
Salary is a function of supply and demand- if illegal immigration And off shoring is lowered -wages go up -that is why there are no steel mills and auto plants since 1968 We decided we would use cheap foreign labor and everybody would go to school - forever

[mathjak107]

Salary is a function of doing the things people can’t or won’t do for themselves....

The more can’t or won’t , the higher the pay

If we all had a disease where we couldn’t move our arms coffee servers who could would get very very high pay

[redguard57]

Originally Posted by RationalExpectations

Both in my primary residence city and my vacation residence city:

• Rough carpenters are in high demand and can write their own ticket.
• Finish carpenters are in high demand and can write their own ticket.
• HVAC techs are in high demand and can write their own ticket.
• Tile setters are in high demand and can write their own ticket.
• Electricians are in high demand and can write their own ticket.
• Home automation techs (low voltage license) are in high demand and can write their own ticket.
• Masons are in high demand and can write their own ticket.
• Granite counter installers are in high demand and can write their own ticket.
• Custom cabinet fabricators are in high demand and can write their own ticket.
• Roofers are in high demand and can write their own ticket.

Not to mention private jet & airplane mechanics are in high demand and can write their own ticket.

BTW, why in the world would you ever repair an embedded controller? You just replace it.

Construction trades of that nature are hard work and many of them require somewhat of an inherent talent.

My FiL can make beautiful cabinets and has made quite a lot of money doing so, but he keeps his day job because of the wear and tear on his body that installing cabinets does.

Even more important - he has an eye for building stuff. He's tried trained me to do some things, but I simply don't have the... well I would almost call it an artistry... to build stuff. Since he was a kid, he could take things apart and put them together. I never had that kind of spatial awareness skill, and struggle to put together Ikea furniture. Not to say that I couldn't be trained... but it would take a long time. Longer than most companies building houses probably want to invest.

So this is not an answer for everyone.

[Minethatbird]

Originally Posted by ocnjgirl

My niece's step-brother got hired by an electrician right out of high school, but I don't remember whether he had any training or whether he was trained on the job. I also don't know how he got it. There are still things he's not allowed to do after a couple of years. And my oldest nephew worked for years as an auto mechanic after vocational high school.

Yes, job markets vary greatly. Glad your son found something. I don't think anyone is saying trades are good for every kid, but there are just as many kids who graduate with a bachelors and never get a job in their field. But usually its not a choice between college and trades. No one is saying the kid in honors Physics should be a plumber instead of an aerospace engineer, but for the kids who aren't going to go to college, I think vocational training is the best alternative for many. of them. In fact I don't really see what the other alternatives would be aside from military service.

Vocational training is not just traditional trades like electrical and plumbing, but also things like hairdressing, health care and chef training.

Oh a couple of classmates of his got jobs in the electrical field .... one kid got a job with Dad's company. Another told my son What's your problem, there's LOADs of work. So my son asked then can I have a job? Classmate responded Well actually we may have to lay people off ..... another can be found saying Welcome to Chic-Fil-A, can I help you? I am thankful to God that I had the money to spend to set my son up in another state .... also thankful he didn't pay for his apprenticeship at a community college or the like, would have hated to see him have to deal with debt. I've got nothing against the trades but I don't think people are being realistic sometimes. Things like hairdressing, health care and commercial cooking have taken a beating due to COVID.

[Johnhw2]

Originally Posted by Minethatbird

Oh a couple of classmates of his got jobs in the electrical field .... one kid got a job with Dad's company. Another told my son What's your problem, there's LOADs of work. So my son asked then can I have a job? Classmate responded Well actually we may have to lay people off ..... another can be found saying Welcome to Chic-Fil-A, can I help you? I am thankful to God that I had the money to spend to set my son up in another state .... also thankful he didn't pay for his apprenticeship at a community college or the like, would have hated to see him have to deal with debt. I've got nothing against the trades but I don't think people are being realistic sometimes. Things like hairdressing, health care and commercial cooking have taken a beating due to COVID.

Trade skill jobs can not be done remotely in most cases so like real estate those jobs depend upon location, location, location.

[Taggerung]

College is a disgraceful racket- the college industry exists not to educate, but to sell college loans, and to give young adults a way to extend their adolescence for a few more years. We need to bring back productive jobs. We don't need more marketing managers at the GAP, we need people who can make clothes by hand, lay brick, build a table, fix a fridge, grow crops without borrowing $700,000 dollars.

We're going to become a far more austere society in the relatively near future, and the cushy, highly paid plum jobs will vanish, because we simply won't be able to afford them.