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Old 09-08-2020, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Sacramento County
156 posts, read 96,539 times
Reputation: 311

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A lot of ignorant people are ranting about how our colleges need to be restructured to provide more vocational training - aka the trades - plumbing, electricians, and so on. This idea is so stupid on its face that we really don't need to go far to show why it is such an epic failure in the making - but economic education isn't all that great in America so I'm gonna have to go at least half the distance. Although you fellow filthy America-hating commie pinko scum (hey, we all know who we are - I'm one, too!) pretty much already know what I'm talking about on an instinctual level. It goes a little like this. Think about what electricians and other tradesmen are paid today. It doesn't matter what the actual numbers are. What matters is that in basic economics, a tradesmen's pay is a function of how many people want their services versus how many competitors there are for those customers. It's called supply versus demand: Predictably, if the supply of tradesmen goes up relative to the demand for tradesmen, tradesmen pay will go down due to increased competition, until it drops close to the break-even point. (See: Iron Law of Wages.) Basic economics, right?

I think you all see where this is going. When you see someone pontificating about how we need more tradesmen, guess what happens if this transpires: there is more competition for customers of tradesmen. Plus a double-whammy: now you have a bunch more tradesmen who can do their own work for themselves, doubling the downward pressure on tradesmen pay. Supply goes up, competition goes up, price wars happen, pay goes down. Because economics. But wait. There's more. Subscribe a civilization to the scam of converting millions of useless Feminist Dance Theory graduates to Plumbers and Electricians and you also create higher demand for Plumber and Electrician training. Guess what that does: that makes Plumber and Electrician education IMPACTED. That's just a fancy schmancy college-verse word for "demand for training has skyrocketed in relation to and has overwhelmed the supply of trainers." Impacted majors is an already common problem in colleges, and the trades would not in any case be immune to the problem once you shift all those Liberal Arts / Women's Studies majors over into those fields. Now ask me what impacted courses mean? C'mon ask. I'll tell you. It means two things - far higher tuition costs and a giant bottleneck in which enrollment will be limited. Kinda like the way medical school is today, but now also for Plumbers and Electricians in this bleak scenario where the Vocational Boom advocates get their way. So of all the masses who buy into the vocational education scam (which is not a scam in today's reality but will be in that proposed reality), a large percentage will be weeded out simply by enrollment limits - thus being forced back to pursuing that useless Feminist Dance Theory degree. Well, not Feminist Dance Theory in particular, but in the minds of those who think we should convert millions of people to vocational training, everything that's not vocational training is Feminist Dance Theory, aka a "useless" college degree. Disclaimer: I honestly can't tell you if Feminist Dance Theory is actually a real college course anywhere, nor whether it's actually useless.

And that is why the calls for a mass conversion of college students over to the Trades will become a disastrous failure not more than a few galloping steps out of the gate.
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Old 09-08-2020, 09:59 PM
 
17,876 posts, read 15,780,590 times
Reputation: 11656
I will say that we dont have enough neurologists in NYC metro. Been trying to make some appointments for more than week, and all I got was one appt one week away, and two others three weeks.

I agree with what you are saying in general. In the MW thread people keep talking about getting more education so they can get better job. It wont matter. There are only so many higher paying jobs out there. That is why MW needs to keep up with expanding money supply.

But still we are probably not at that point of having too many high skilled workers as illustrated by my inability to get a neurology appointment sooner.
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:08 PM
 
2,634 posts, read 2,654,705 times
Reputation: 6507
I’ve never seen anyone in education advocate for more plumbers or electricians. The push is for education in trades such as these to be more accessible. We currently have very limited track, especially in math, where everyone Takes Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and maybe Pre-Cal and Calculus. When you look at how many people in society actually need these courses, maybe our education system is not offering classes that are useful to the majority of students.

The idea is to give that future welder, electrician, plumber, etc. classes that are useful when they are in school instead of solving quadratic equations and analyzing texts of Beowulf. It has nothing to do with increasing the amount of plumbers.

I actually haven’t heard of this being done in college as there are already trade schools when you finish high school. The idea is to restructure high school to better fit the needs of the students.
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Sacramento County
156 posts, read 96,539 times
Reputation: 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
I will say that we dont have enough neurologists in NYC metro. Been trying to make some appointments for more than week, and all I got was one appt one week away, and two others three weeks.

I agree with what you are saying in general. In the MW thread people keep talking about getting more education so they can get better job. It wont matter. There are only so many higher paying jobs out there. That is why MW needs to keep up with expanding money supply.

But still we are probably not at that point of having too many high skilled workers as illustrated by my inability to get a neurology appointment sooner.
Of course there is room to argue over whether we are at a saturation point for trades work. Neurologists are limited by how many are admitted into med school. We certainly could use a relaxation of those limits, but getting rid of them entirely would oversaturate the market.

Great for you and me because neurologists would be cheap. Terrible for them, when they wind up drowning in college debt and unable to get out of it due to depressed pay.

We need the economy to set a balance.
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:57 PM
 
17,876 posts, read 15,780,590 times
Reputation: 11656
Quote:
Originally Posted by JobHunter2018 View Post
Of course there is room to argue over whether we are at a saturation point for trades work. Neurologists are limited by how many are admitted into med school. We certainly could use a relaxation of those limits, but getting rid of them entirely would oversaturate the market.

Great for you and me because neurologists would be cheap. Terrible for them, when they wind up drowning in college debt and unable to get out of it due to depressed pay.

We need the economy to set a balance.
It is criminal that they limit the number of medical specialists. Let each pre med choose whether they think it is worth it or not. How are they even able to do this legally?
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Old 09-09-2020, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas & San Diego
6,910 posts, read 3,316,463 times
Reputation: 8618
Quote:
Originally Posted by JobHunter2018 View Post
A lot of ignorant people are ranting about how our colleges need to be restructured to provide more vocational training - aka the trades - plumbing, electricians, and so on. This idea is so stupid on its face that we really don't need to go far to show why it is such an epic failure in the making - but economic education isn't all that great in America so I'm gonna have to go at least half the distance. Although you fellow filthy America-hating commie pinko scum (hey, we all know who we are - I'm one, too!) pretty much already know what I'm talking about on an instinctual level. It goes a little like this. Think about what electricians and other tradesmen are paid today. It doesn't matter what the actual numbers are. What matters is that in basic economics, a tradesmen's pay is a function of how many people want their services versus how many competitors there are for those customers. It's called supply versus demand: Predictably, if the supply of tradesmen goes up relative to the demand for tradesmen, tradesmen pay will go down due to increased competition, until it drops close to the break-even point. (See: Iron Law of Wages.) Basic economics, right?

I think you all see where this is going. When you see someone pontificating about how we need more tradesmen, guess what happens if this transpires: there is more competition for customers of tradesmen. Plus a double-whammy: now you have a bunch more tradesmen who can do their own work for themselves, doubling the downward pressure on tradesmen pay. Supply goes up, competition goes up, price wars happen, pay goes down. Because economics. But wait. There's more. Subscribe a civilization to the scam of converting millions of useless Feminist Dance Theory graduates to Plumbers and Electricians and you also create higher demand for Plumber and Electrician training. Guess what that does: that makes Plumber and Electrician education IMPACTED. That's just a fancy schmancy college-verse word for "demand for training has skyrocketed in relation to and has overwhelmed the supply of trainers." Impacted majors is an already common problem in colleges, and the trades would not in any case be immune to the problem once you shift all those Liberal Arts / Women's Studies majors over into those fields. Now ask me what impacted courses mean? C'mon ask. I'll tell you. It means two things - far higher tuition costs and a giant bottleneck in which enrollment will be limited. Kinda like the way medical school is today, but now also for Plumbers and Electricians in this bleak scenario where the Vocational Boom advocates get their way. So of all the masses who buy into the vocational education scam (which is not a scam in today's reality but will be in that proposed reality), a large percentage will be weeded out simply by enrollment limits - thus being forced back to pursuing that useless Feminist Dance Theory degree. Well, not Feminist Dance Theory in particular, but in the minds of those who think we should convert millions of people to vocational training, everything that's not vocational training is Feminist Dance Theory, aka a "useless" college degree. Disclaimer: I honestly can't tell you if Feminist Dance Theory is actually a real college course anywhere, nor whether it's actually useless.

And that is why the calls for a mass conversion of college students over to the Trades will become a disastrous failure not more than a few galloping steps out of the gate.
If you want to debate an issue, don't start by calling people ignorant and characterize behavior as ranting - shows very poor understanding of your audience.

You also picked 2 trades, plumbers and electricians, that do not require going to vocational schools, most start through an apprentice program. Plumber and electrician trades are regulated by the state through an apprentice, journeyman, master structure - the plumbers and electrician unions control the apprenticeships which limits how many enter the profession by controlling the licensing process. Your arguments about overcapacity do not apply - different means but similar to how medical school admissions controls the number of licensed DRs, preventing overcapacity.

I think you missed a major point - many would be better served by vocational training than an expensive degree in something like your example of "Feminist Dance Theory" - vocational training is much more relevant to getting a job that pays well than an arts related degree that does not translate into a profession with a solid career associated.

Last edited by ddeemo; 09-09-2020 at 12:27 AM..
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Old 09-09-2020, 04:21 AM
 
Location: The Triad
34,090 posts, read 82,583,206 times
Reputation: 43650
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddeemo View Post
II think you missed a major point -
He does that. It's like a thing with him. You're missing a few as well.
Quote:
...many would be better served by vocational training than an expensive degree ...
That's true. And most of the inside jobs that "require" a degree really don't need that. At all.
All most really need is enough vocabulary and poise to communicate well; what used to come with a High School diploma.
Quote:
...vocational training is much more relevant to getting a job that pays well ...
Developing some skills and actual interest in the topic needs to start far earlier. Before age 14.
PUSHING the others into it is almost as bad as pushing them into a college track has proven;
whether that happens before age 18 or later in life.

Those kids who did show that sort of interest at age 14 and before.. are the ones who HAVE BEEN getting into
the trades all along ... but NONE of them began with any sort of organized training before they began working.
(That's done in Europe and is still worth emulating)

These future tradespeople worked summers through high school with a relative or neighbor who does that work
they'll have proven themselves capable and not afraid of work. Or sweat. Or to come home dirty and tired.

They graduated HS with real experience and enough skill to support themselves right off the bat.
They showed themselves capable enough to be hired and have the company pay for the (ABC/Union)
supplemental schooling needed to advance through Journeyman. And to be paid for that class time too!

Or they'll gain enough perspective about the work and life in general to genuinely CHOOSE college.

And pay for it themselves. NOT be tracked into it with a $150,000 debt.



And if something changes in their lives later on they can fall back on those skills.

Last edited by MrRational; 09-09-2020 at 04:41 AM..
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Old 09-09-2020, 06:40 AM
 
4,717 posts, read 3,242,411 times
Reputation: 12122
While your post is wordy, I get your basic concern that we'll have a glut of plumbers, roofers, electricians, etc. and thus the prices for their work will go down and it will be harder for them to make a decent living. I doubt this- many of these jobs are strenuous, require work in harsh physical conditions (working in sweltering attics, outdoors in bad weather, dealing with effluents). They're not suited to everyone.

We do, however, need to stop measuring the "success" of high schools by the % they send on to higher education. Doesn't matter if the kid is college material or if they flunk out the first semester or they end up with 1.5 years of miscellaneous unmarketable courses (some of which might be remedial rather than college level) and a pile of student loans...hey, they got into college and that's all they measure. I'd like to see "guidance counselors" who actually tailor their approach to the individual student- not just figure out how to ram him/her into college whether it makes sense or not.
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Old 09-09-2020, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Niceville, FL
13,258 posts, read 22,704,542 times
Reputation: 16414
They're also not as stable jobs as many assume they are. During the 2008 recession, there were scores of skilled building tradespeople out of work in Florida because of the sharp drop in new construction and the number of plumbers and electricians probably decreased by 40%.
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Old 09-09-2020, 07:43 AM
 
5,104 posts, read 6,030,598 times
Reputation: 7173
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
I will say that we dont have enough neurologists in NYC metro. Been trying to make some appointments for more than week, and all I got was one appt one week away, and two others three weeks.

I agree with what you are saying in general. In the MW thread people keep talking about getting more education so they can get better job. It wont matter. There are only so many higher paying jobs out there. That is why MW needs to keep up with expanding money supply.

But still we are probably not at that point of having too many high skilled workers as illustrated by my inability to get a neurology appointment sooner.

You think getting an appointment a week out is too far out? In our area you would be lucky to get one a month out and that is if you are only an established patient with the practice. A new patient will probably be 3 months out. When I see a specialist I schedule my followup 3 months out. If I need to change it it has to get pushed out another 3-6 weeks.


And I'm not 'way out in the boonies' I'm in a suburb within commuting distance Washington DC.
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