Debate Rages On - Generous UI Benefits Cause People Not To Work, Or Do They? (purchase, stocks)

[KaraG]

Originally Posted by Serious Conversation

This recession is fundamentally different because it wasn't caused by something underlying like a financial crisis, ecological problem, or war. It was caused by voluntary economic shutdowns induced by a disease.

What's important to keep in mind is that governments voluntarily shutdown their economies, ostensibly to protect the population from the virus. In most cases, the virus wasn't stopped and the shutdowns damaged economies worse than doing nothing at all.

Voluntarily by the governments, involuntary for all the companies affected. Even though our area had a short shutdown, we are still very much affected by our largest customers being shut down in different states.

[Storm Eagle]

There is a strange thought process in our society that you have to work no matter what. It does not matter how low the pay or how crappy the job is you must work. This causes a lot of stress and depression Some people say jobs give us meaning but that is only true for the small amount of people who actually enjoy their jobs.That is why I feel a basic income is the a good thing to have so people do not have to work crappy jobs because society tells them to they can choose a job that fits them. This would make people happier and society as a whole much better.

[ddeemo]

Originally Posted by Storm Eagle

There is a strange thought process in our society that you have to work no matter what. It does not matter how low the pay or how crappy the job is you must work. This causes a lot of stress and depression Some people say jobs give us meaning but that is only true for the small amount of people who actually enjoy their jobs. That is why I feel a basic income is the a good thing to have so people do not have to work crappy jobs because society tells them to they can choose a job that fits them. This would make people happier and society as a whole much better.

So who works the "crappy jobs", how does that work get done? It is not like that work disappears. I think you want this basic income so you can quit your "crappy job" forever and never have to work again.

Your "basic income" would create a permanent class of people who never work their entire lives - those ok with basic income without having to do anything. And who is going to pay for that basic income benefit - you would have to tax the heck out of those that do work to pay for it. What would be their incentive to work for peanuts after tax while those who do nothing get nearly the same basic income level for doing nothing. The US economy would go into severe spiral downhill.

[mathjak107]

Originally Posted by ddeemo

So who works the "crappy jobs", how does that work get done? It is not like that work disappears. I think you want this basic income so you can quit your "crappy job" forever and never have to work again.

Your "basic income" would create a permanent class of people who never work their entire lives - those ok with basic income without having to do anything. And who is going to pay for that basic income benefit - you would have to tax the heck out of those that do work to pay for it. What would be their incentive to work for peanuts after tax while those who do nothing get nearly the same basic income level for doing nothing. The US economy would go into severe spiral downhill.

Anything goes when it comes to more free money as long as they are not the ones paying for it and only benefiting from it ....

Anytime someone suggests higher taxes or surcharges for something you can bet it does not start at their level

[MarisaAnna]

In Australia extra covid benefits are starting to be wound back this week. The additional unemployment benefit called Jobseeker is being reduced as is the Jobkeeper allowance, paid to businesses to retain staff.

Will be interesting to see what happens. One problem is that almost all benefits here are federal, not state. But we have all states but Victoria with the virus all but eliminated and life near normal. Then Victoria slowly emerging from lockdown ( curfew is lifted at 5am tomorrow) but with many businesses still closed. Thus jobs hard to find there.

Too much money has been thrown around (we got around $3,000 we do not need at all and looks like another $1,500 is on the way) But decisions have had to be made so quickly this year that it is not surprising.

[Storm Eagle]

Originally Posted by ddeemo

So who works the "crappy jobs", how does that work get done? It is not like that work disappears. I think you want this basic income so you can quit your "crappy job" forever and never have to work again.

Your "basic income" would create a permanent class of people who never work their entire lives - those ok with basic income without having to do anything. And who is going to pay for that basic income benefit - you would have to tax the heck out of those that do work to pay for it. What would be their incentive to work for peanuts after tax while those who do nothing get nearly the same basic income level for doing nothing. The US economy would go into severe spiral downhill.

People will have the power to where they want to work and if no one wants to work somewhere then that is a worthless job and the employer will have to improve the job to get people to work there this creating better work environments for people. With how automation is going there is not going to be jobs for people to do anyway. People would probably do things that they enjoy that make their life more fulfilling like spend time with family, make crafts, volunteer and so on. How we could pay for it these are some suggestions I have seen https://medium.com/predict/how-we-co...e-759c232562dc https://freedom-dividend.com/

[Rocko20]

Originally Posted by Hemlock140

It was ridiculous to give $2,400 to couple like us who are still making as much as before working from home, and saving several hundred/month by not buying gas or going out.
All we did was put it in savings, if we need to buy anything we have the money. I suppose it was a lot easier than requiring proof of hours cut or being laid off, but if they did that, they could hire people to do the verification.

Most people just gave it right back to the banks by paying off CC debt, that's what you call irony.

[redguard57]

Originally Posted by ddeemo

So who works the "crappy jobs", how does that work get done? It is not like that work disappears. I think you want this basic income so you can quit your "crappy job" forever and never have to work again.

Your "basic income" would create a permanent class of people who never work their entire lives - those ok with basic income without having to do anything. And who is going to pay for that basic income benefit - you would have to tax the heck out of those that do work to pay for it. What would be their incentive to work for peanuts after tax while those who do nothing get nearly the same basic income level for doing nothing. The US economy would go into severe spiral downhill.

I'll say again. The pandemic has proven that most people do not want to sit in their house and watch Netflix for the whole lives, no matter how much money they have coming in.

And no it wouldn't cost that much. Andrew Yang estimated the cost of the Freedom Dividend at about $3 Trillion a year. We have already spent $7 Trillion this year and counting. Keep in mind this would ELIMINATE a lot of welfare & entitlement programs such as unemployment, public housing, etc..

I don't agree with a too-generous UBI, but I agree with an amount of about $1000 a month. $12k a year is not enough to live on, at least not live well. But put TWO 1k a month UBI's together - then they can afford a house together. One partner can take care of the kids, the other can work. Gives people flexibility and some start-up capital to start businesses, etc.., etc..

[oceangaia]

Originally Posted by redguard57

And no it wouldn't cost that much. Andrew Yang estimated the cost of the Freedom Dividend at about $3 Trillion a year. We have already spent $7 Trillion this year and counting. Keep in mind this would ELIMINATE a lot of welfare & entitlement programs such as unemployment, public housing, etc..

There is a YUGE difference between a one-time $7 Trillion expense (which may yet kill us economically) versus a repeating $3 Trillion per year. That's like a family putting $25k (that they don't have) on a credit card to give their daughter a nice wedding then using that to justify spending $10k (that they don't have) every year on something else like a vacation home.

[redguard57]

Originally Posted by oceangaia

There is a YUGE difference between a one-time $7 Trillion expense (which may yet kill us economically) versus a repeating $3 Trillion per year. That's like a family putting $25k (that they don't have) on a credit card to give their daughter a nice wedding then using that to justify spending $10k (that they don't have) every year on something else like a vacation home.

We'd also gain a lot of income.

This has nothing at all to do with family budgets. Families do not also own the banks that lend them money. The U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve are now one and the same. The Fed, the U.S. Treasury and the stock markets are all "the United States" now. For any one of them to fall, is for all of them to fall. We have literally tied the country to one big "too big to fail" scheme. Therefore, it will never fail, unless or until the U.S. loses its global economic and geo-political position, which I don't expect until at least the year 2080, probably well into the 22nd century.

After what we've done in response to covid, no one can speak to me of austerity with a straight face ever again.

I haven't forgotten how, 10 years ago, you people told us we couldn't spend even a fraction of this much on stimulus to respond to the 2008 crisis because there would be hyper-inflation and sovereign debt crises. The biggest packages people were calling for back then were about $2 Trillion. We ended up with a package adding up to around $800 Billion.

Well, we've spent $7 Trillion, NINE TIMES AS MUCH! In 7 MONTHS!! And now we are trying to spend $2.4 Trillion more, and haven't batted a damned eye. All those old austerity arguments were and are bankrupt and wrong. Clearly we can spend whatever we feel like, and there's no inflation nor sovereign debt crisis.

To the extent this is like a family budget - it's as if the family in question is also the family that owns the only banks in town. So they just lend themselves money and then service the debt, ad infinitum. The only way they lose is if the economic activity ups and leaves town to a neighboring town. Which right now, offers not even half the advantages.