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What BS - having a job / low unemployment is a measure of the overall economy - the jobs dropped to historic lows before COVID - virtually anyone could get a job then. Increased GDP and productivity is also be a measure, GDP was at historical high and standard of living was increasing. The economy was good for nearly everyone that was trying to actively participate in it. I certainly did not say anything like the "stock market (is) the measure of the economy".
Also BS to say "If you are rich, covid has not affected you at all" COVID has affected everybody - You guys keep trying to rewrite history to explain why you failed to excel in one of the best economies ever.
About 50% of Americans reported in the election exit polls that they are better off financially than before the pandemic. I'm one of them, for the moment. Among the top 10 and especially 1%, amazingly well. Some people have done better than they would otherwise, so it has been quite a boon for some. In the bottom half they are sinking and going deeper into a hole they will struggle to ever come out of. This K shape crap.
The economic success in the 10s was because of tech. Have to stop giving the presidents so much credit or blame. The president is not a prime minister, his economic powers are weak, arguably the weakest head of government in the G7 in terms of economic powers because of our system.
There was nothing about the period 2017-early 2020 that wasn't happening before. All the trendlines just continued. It's a testament to how strong the economy in general was, that Trump managed not to screw it up despite his incompetence and ill advised trade war. But again that speaks to the overall weakness of the American federal government's powers over its econony, which are mostly reactive
The 90s were better. So were the 60s. The late 10s were a decent time for normal people economically, but not as good as they could have been. If housing or education were affordable maybe, that's why I put the 90s higher. The 10s were great if you were already rich and owned the preferred asset classes.
But like Dolphins fans, I guess those three glory years will be something you can always point to, even though the Democrats controlled the House for one of them.
The '72 dolphins will always be undefeated. Despite any weaknesses, poor competition, easier season, or any contextual criticism, they always have that.
Last edited by redguard57; 02-11-2021 at 11:34 PM..
---------Oh boy...I'm busted. I mentioned HIS name. So now, if I mention a politician's name, I'm being political?
You LIED when you said you didn't mention Trump, that was an issue - but using it to blame, that was being political.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brownpine
-------- Pretty remarkable that you're mentioning child poverty rates as a measure of the economy. I'm impressed. But, you're forgetting something in your stats - The share of Americans living in poverty fell to 10.5 percent in 2019, the Census Bureau reported, down 1.3 percentage points from 2018. A 1.3 percentage point decline in a supposed great economy is not satisfactory. It just reinforces my point on why the minimum wage needs to be increased - only the top 10% are doing very well. Everyone else is clinging on to dear life (and their COVID checks).
Interesting that you don't mention homelessness. Or the number of people on food stamps. If you're going to talk economics with me, you need to look at the full picture. I'm not going to let you cherry pick stats that support your position which is based on belief and not reality. Tell the whole story.
The story was a record economy - record low unemployment, record low poverty. Having a record best economy is NOT a bad economy or else every economy by your definition is "crap". The stats you post even show that it was record - do you even know what fell means in the context of fewer in poverty?
No mater how you cut it - $15 wage WILL be bad for many Americans, it will do NOTHING about homeless, it will likely increase those on food stamps - it is you that doesn't even provide data for your claims, just broad statements. Try backing your statements with data. Interesting you want to focus on those who choose not to participate in the record economy.
When minimum wage goes up, ALL wages tend to go up. And prices tend to go up.
But WHEN will wages go up for those of us who worked our butts off and did what we had to do NOT to live a life of sturggling to get by on entry level minimum wage jobs?!? If anybody could answer that, then I believe more people would get on board with a $15 an hour minumum wage.
On the flipside, that's why the whole "Fight for $15" thing to "give all employees a livable wage" is so ridiculous. Love it or hate it, we live in the biggest capitalist society in the world, and once minimum wage shoots up that high, then the cost of EVERYTHING will shoot up in response. And once that happens, the people who complained about minimum wage not being livable will be right back in the same old "unlivable" spot that they thought they were getting out of.
Well first, it might help if we did something about college costs to help facilitate that upward mobility. My Sonic job, if I got enough hours, was enough to pay my rent & basic utilities in a shared 2br apt, OR my tuition (I took out a few loans so that I didn't have to work 60 hour weeks by adding another job). Although it was not enough for both. Now, only about 15 years later, that job would not be would not nearly enough to cover either rent or tuition. Not even close. Because when I went to college, it cost half as much as it does now. So did the apartment. The same apartment I paid $450 to share is now $875. The same college that cost me about 3.5k in tuition per semester is now 8k. Wages have increased about 20%. I made about $6.50-7.00 an hour (when minimum wage was $5.15), today I hear the jobs I once had pay about $9.50-10.00 per hour.
EXACTLY!!!! If politicans on either side of the aisle were REALLY serious about increasing upward mobility for the average American, then they would worry less about minumum wage and focus on doing something about the OUTRAGEOUS and often unattainable cost of college. College is so expensive that a lot of middle class people really can't even afford it. If you truly want to help elevate the status of the average American, then you should focus on helping and elevating the MIDDLE CLASS (aka the MAJORITY of Americans). That's just common sense.
Nope, that won't work. In my state of PA, Pat Toomey, one of our U.S. Senators, previously/or still is a business owner. He's republican. Our current PA governor, Tom Wolf, is a business owner. He's Democrat. Both own businesses but they look out for special interests and their own bottom line. Not for what's best for our state or country.
Name an elected politician who does NOT look out for special interests and their own bottom line.
Do you make $7.25 an hour? If not, I think you should speak to people who do and ask them their opinion. There are CEOs who are utter failures who make millions and yet no calculates how much that CEO SHOULD be making. Why are we only pocket-watching poor people?
Again, you're pointing to a predictive study which are based on probability. Without a minimum wage increase, jobs have been disappearing. Have you visited your local mall prior to COVID? Macy's just last year closed dozens of stores. They did not close stores b/c Trump was increasing the minimum wage. This whole notion of jobs getting lost if the minimum wage goes up is bunk. There...I said it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brownpine
Amen! I've been saying this all along. 7.25 is like getting paid zero. And the same people who are saying no to $15 are the same ones who are crying if they don't get their annual increase or promotion in 1-2 years. So because you sit at a computer makes you better than someone who cleans offices or stock shelves? I don't think so.
Brownpine,
This is The Economics Forum. In general, people are expected to know something about, you know, Economics.
I see from your posts that you've never studied Microeconomics, The Theory of The Firm, or Price Theory. That's OK; it isn't everyone's cup-of-tea. There are some excellent online classes available, many free, and some of which you don't even need high school-level calculus as a prerequisite.
If you find any of the concepts particularly difficult or if you cannot follow them, come back & start a thread asking for a bit of help. Many of us here would be more than willing to help you/tutor you through the material.
Last edited by RationalExpectations; 02-12-2021 at 09:20 AM..
I'm going guess you can't be bothered to admit that MF was more or less 100% correct.
According to The BLS about 1% of full time hourly workers earn the minimum wage. MW workers tend to be young and very young and very undereducated. There are no surprises.
Most of the states have their own minimum wage well above the federal minimum wage. And they also tend to have a higher proportion of the nation's population than the rural states that have ceded minimum wage authority to the federal government.
Minimum wage raise at the federal level historically tends to be a late cycle step after the economy has been going for a while and the cost of living has increased markedly, especially in real estate but in many other things.
$ 15 will probably come later in the decade to the more prosperous states without the federal government following suit. It would be too big a jump for the rural states.
I did when I was in high school. I was a burger flipper for Whataburger a decade ago (before that I worked at SeaWorld as a cashier).
Then when I was ready to move on and get paid more, I quit, as well as all the other high school kids who were ready to go to college or join the military to pay for college. And guess what? Some people stayed because that's all they wanted to do, and that's fine.
Believe it or not, you can't legislate burger flippers up the social ladder. That's not the way economics or supply and demand works. You either flip that buger for what the market demands, or you learn a better skill to get paid more, flipping burgers is not going to get you an early retirement nor is artificially inflating a burger flippers salary so they can get the new iPhone and flat screen TV.
The employer will ALWAYS control what hours an employee is permitted to work.
The true minimal wage is $0, and if you want to get paid more than that then you better learn a skill that demands more money or create your own business where you can pay your employees $50 an hour to make you feel better. But you won't be in business for very long.
Obviously you've come a long way and should've stayed in Texas rather than going to Hawaii. Texas has a better economy right now they've got a higher population as well.
As a South Carolinian (former Californian), Walmart & McDonald's start at $11
Because minimum wage is $11. The argument is to make it $15 which is $4 more. Although I'm pretty sure that Seattle, WA and NYC among other parts are making their way into the $15 an hour first.
EXACTLY!!!! If politicans on either side of the aisle were REALLY serious about increasing upward mobility for the average American, then they would worry less about minumum wage and focus on doing something about the OUTRAGEOUS and often unattainable cost of college. College is so expensive that a lot of middle class people really can't even afford it. If you truly want to help elevate the status of the average American, then you should focus on helping and elevating the MIDDLE CLASS (aka the MAJORITY of Americans). That's just common sense.
The reason the price of college has skyrocketed is BECAUSE the government has "done something." The government has provided subsidies, tuition assistance and student loans. That allows universities to raise the price of tuition to account for the government subsidies.
At any rate, middle class families don't pay retail. They get massive discounts. Only affluent people pay full-boat retail.
That's unconscionable, of course; imagine going into a grocery store to buy a loaf of bread. You're standing in line. The person in front of you is buying the same brand/size/SKU loaf of bread. The check-out clerk says to the person in front of you, "that'll be $1.27," and that person pays.
Then the check-out clerk rings your purchase up and says, "that'll be "$4.89." What, wait?
You protest to the check-out clerk, 'the guy in front of me bought the same item and you only charged him $1.27!"
"Ah, yes," said the clerk, "but your income is higher so we charge you more for the same item."
***
The fastest way to bring down the high cost of a University education is to end all tuition assistance. In short order, the total price of attending a University would plummet and some colleges/universities would go out of business. That would be a good thing.
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