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No need to look for the answer when it's staring us in the face.
I had this same conversion with a older friend of mine the other day, "Pull yourself up by you boot straps" type of guy.
I had to explain to him the harsh realities of today works force, and how that is no longer the case anymore.
That is a cop-out that just makes a statement without any backing - I certainly don't think it is true. You are also not really addressing the topic by just making a statement with no explanation. Explain it here why you think that, just like you did for your friend.
Your statement make it seem like an entitlement to be able to boot strap your way up, but it only happens with lots of hard work and time. Most now seem to think it should happen quickly and easily and not willing to put in the work to make their way up. It was never quick or easy - lets get real also, not everyone will "make it". Someone is always doing better, the idea is to have it be you.
The simple (or not so simple) question of chasing the American Dream: now vs then.
How tough is it, relatively speaking, for working class Americans to achieve the middle-class level of living today vs 25 years ago and vs 50 years ago? (Do we now have it easier, tougher or about the same level of difficulty to achieve a certain degree of overall lifestyle through working for a living as compared with our parent's generation and our grandparent's generation?)
We have to define some terms:
middle-class level of living .... what material things might this include?
My idea of middle-class American living includes but is not limited to the following:
-living in an area with desirable climate, beautiful scenery, well-maintained infrastructure, little noise/pollution, little or no crime, little congestion, no graffiti
-living in a 3+br single-family unit home with at least a 2-car garage, a private fenced yard, a green-well-maintained front lawn, complete landscaping and such property being in excellent condition overall
-having at least one car, van, SUV or truck in excellent overall condition
-having one or two purebred dogs, such animals being well-cared for, in the household (it might be more expensive to properly care for a dog now vs the past)
-having all the tools necessary for home yard care as lawn mower, garden tools and wheelbarrow
-having a home that is well-furnished with furniture and appliances in excellent condition
-having at least one recreational toy as a motorboat, a motorcycle, an ATV, a jetski or a camper
relative toughness to acquire wealth through employment ...
- what education level is required for employment yielding a certain level of income, now vs then (it seems more and more employers have been requiring college degrees in modern times)
- how many hours and days a month worked to achieve certain level of income now vs then (are people now working longer hours with less R&R time?)
- how physically hard is the labor now vs then (modern machinery may reduce muscle work on the job)
- how stressful or dangerous is the work now vs then (advanced OSHA standards may make work less dangerous)
- do more jobs nowadays entail being away from home a lot depending on the nature of the job (some IT professionals may have to travel a lot)
- how hard is it to find work now vs then
- how much is the job a strain on the brain now vs then
- how difficult is it to acquire skills or train for the job now vs then (increasing use of modern technology as computers, software and other electronic equipment may have steepened the learning curve required to do certain traditional occupations as automobile mechanic, welder, law enforcement, architect or electrician)
- how mean, condescending or pushy are the bosses toward employees at work, now vs then
- does the job entail a higher risk of being a victim of a violent crime now then it did then (is there more workplace-related violence now than in the past?)
Other things (costs) that affect ability to live middle-class lifestyle which may have changed through time:
-taxation: income, sales, property, etc.
-fees charged both by government and private entities: fees to register car, fees to park downtown, fees to test vehicle emissions, fees charged by banks to do banking, road/bridge toll fees, etc.
-shipping costs entailed by consumers by having to order merchandise by mail/Internet orders as opposed to picking stuff up at local stores (local stores have been having a more general limited selection of things in stock or available for pickup with the advent of online marketplaces like amazon.com and eBay)
John I think you did a good job defining what your ideals of the American dream would be. I think it would also suffice to say that every generation and nationality that comes to the country will have different definitions.
If you’re a first generation American or second generation then your expectations of reasonable work and standards of living might be slightly lower than your expectations.
The other dynamic that is completely different today is the labor supply, labor demand, labor composition, and competitive dynamics are all completely changed. The middle class of the 50’s and 60’s could work a 40 hour work week on 1 salary doing blue collar general work. You could be a high school gym teacher own a modest home on suburbia and support a family of four. Today you need two teachers working and taking on extra jobs on the side to support the family of four and they are in eye high debt.
There is an inverse relationship between population size and resources per person. When the population goes up and resources per person goes down that is inflation. The real cost of living increase has far exceeded wage growth with consumption levels being fueled through the use of debt. The risk of the debt for the most part has been nationalized and we have leveraged the dollar beyond conceivable levels Hence the current means of sustaining the American dream is all smoke and mirrors or a house of cards if you will. Once there is any indication that treasuries are no longer risk free or the $ has a loss of confidence you will see a significant correction of the equation.
On a global scale our labor force is not that competitive across the board in many to most sectors. We can still manufacture at scale while being productive and competitive but in highly specialized industries. Our labor force has not done a great job at adapting to the challenges of the 21st century and we continue to overcharge for Universities providing an inferior product.
You're arguing that people without problems have no problems. Well, duh. In the absence of any problems, what is there left to blame?
You really don't get - most problems are self created - "lives fell apart through no fault of their own" is a symptom of the issue - "lives falling apart" may be overspending, bad choices, not getting promotions or new job, etc. - the "no fault of their own" is making excuses, implying that it is someone else's fault. The real issue is that failings are normally self created.
You really don't get - most problems are self created - "lives fell apart through no fault of their own" is a symptom of the issue - "lives falling apart" may be overspending, bad choices, not getting promotions or new job, etc. - the "no fault of their own" is making excuses, implying that it is someone else's fault. The real issue is that failings are normally self created.
How does it change anything if they are self created? A person may just not know enough to avoid them. They may have been born with less intelligence or some sort of personality defect or certain genes making them more vulnerable to illness. What difference does it make?
Where do all these Darwinistic, 'only the strong (like me) survive' people come from? Lol.
I guess when you post on a subforum about money, that's to be expected...
Where do all these "Its not my fault that I haven't succeed yet" people come from?
You seem to not understand that it takes 40 years to get there, most of the real wealth growth happens in the last 10 - growth of nest egg, the time value of money is real - after all this the economics forum.
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
10,351 posts, read 8,569,440 times
Reputation: 16698
Quote:
Originally Posted by C2BP
And here is the answer.....they cheat and steal. No one becomes rich in America by being honest, being nice or by working hard. In fact, business is a con-game and businessman is a con-man. How America can trust Big Business when time after time more freedom for Big Business ALWAYS results in massive theft of public and private moneys and the self-coronation of the best crooks and thieves, the Robber Barons.
This is another side of the 'toxic effects of the American Dream', giving crooks and criminals power over American way of life and government with the promise that they will make us all rich. In truth, they make themselves rich, and they make most Americans debt slaves and impoverished at the end.
Bankers, Professional Politicians, Lawyers, Businessmen and Businesswomen = PARASITES!!
Selfishness, greed, vanity and dishonesty (and hoarding) are all sins, let's not forget that.
Somehow I knew you would find your way here to spout off more propaganda.
If dishonesty is a sin I’d say you’re a sinner for all the dishonesty you post.
You really don't get - most problems are self created - "lives fell apart through no fault of their own" is a symptom of the issue - "lives falling apart" may be overspending, bad choices, not getting promotions or new job, etc. - the "no fault of their own" is making excuses, implying that it is someone else's fault. The real issue is that failings are normally self created.
You're talking about people with no problems, as if they live in some kind of vacuum without external pressures. Besides, not getting a promotion =/= life falling apart. That person may be dissatisfied but is technically doing okay, unless something is wrong, some problem appeared.
I'm reminded of a C-D poster from a couple years ago who complained a lot that he couldn't afford a house in San Francisco area, but admitted he had something like $200k in the bank? He could have bought a house outright in many part of the country and we kept trying to tell him that but he was adamant that success for him was ONLY a house in the SF area and a hot wife that would make him sandwiches that he thought he couldn't get because he was living with his parents. He bemoaned his failure and blamed... the world? boomers? us?... for it. That person was not poor, he had multiple years salary in the bank!
On C-D it's quite popular to blame "over-spending" but the poor people I've known usually are VERY careful with their money and know exactly how much they have down the the cent. You can't overspend money or credit you don't have. It's middle class and higher people that don't keep track of their spending because they have some level of cushion and don't worry about it unless they suddenly can't cover a credit card bill or something. It reflects the bias of most C-D econ posters, most of whom are top 5-10%ers... the people THEY know who make mistakes are the kinds of people who financed a BMW they shouldn't have.
I'm curious what you mean by "choices." Exactly WHAT choices are we talking about here?
Last edited by redguard57; 07-10-2021 at 02:04 PM..
You're talking about people with no problems, as if they live in some kind of vacuum without external pressures. Besides, not getting a promotion =/= life falling apart. That person may be dissatisfied but is technically doing okay, unless something is wrong, some problem appeared.
I'm reminded of a C-D poster from a couple years ago who complained a lot that he couldn't afford a house in San Francisco area, but admitted he had something like $200k in the bank? He could have bought a house outright in many part of the country and we kept trying to tell him that but he was adamant that success for him was ONLY a house in the SF area and a hot wife that would make him sandwiches that he thought he couldn't get because he was living with his parents. He bemoaned his failure and blamed... the world? boomers? us?... for it. That person was not poor, he had multiple years salary in the bank!
On C-D it's quite popular to blame "over-spending" but the poor people I've known usually are VERY careful with their money and know exactly how much they have down the the cent. You can't overspend money or credit you don't have. It's middle class and higher people that don't keep track of their spending because they have some level of cushion and don't worry about it unless they suddenly can't cover a credit card bill or something. It reflects the bias of most C-D econ posters, most of whom are top 5-10%ers... the people THEY know who make mistakes are the kinds of people who financed a BMW they shouldn't have.
I'm curious what you mean by "choices." Exactly WHAT choices are we talking about here?
I an not talking about those with no problems, I am talking about those with self created problems - you seem to be always wanting to change what I said. A story about a guy doing OK is no where close to the topic - dissatisfaction like that is a perception issue, it is not close to "lives fell apart". Please stay on what was actually said.
Your take on "popular to blame 'over-spending'" is definitely part of the poor decisions that are self imposed. It should not be an excuse - if poor than spend like you are poor. Overspending above what can afford is a choice, it is part of the or reason why someone may remain poor. Overspending is wholly a self created problem, no one forces someone to buy a new cell phone, a new car or a big place to live. When I made Minimum wage, I had a older car that I paid $400 for from savings. In college and even in my first house, I had roommates - cuts the cost of housing.
Somehow I knew you would find your way here to spout off more propaganda.
If dishonesty is a sin I’d say you’re a sinner for all the dishonesty you post.
Actually he is correct but that's the way all societies have worked since the days of the Pharaohs. It's the way most animal societies work as well. The most ruthless and self serving lead the flock.
Actually he is correct but that's the way all societies have worked since the days of the Pharaohs. It's the way most animal societies work as well. The most ruthless and self serving lead the flock.
That guy's point, after reading hundreds of his posts, is anyone successful is a cheater and liar. If you really believe he is right you are as clueless as he is.........surely not?
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