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Old 09-03-2021, 03:29 PM
 
3,351 posts, read 1,241,200 times
Reputation: 3914

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
Many use their phone but they aren't using the banking system. Like in Africa, many use M-Pesa phone minutes.

Millions in the US are excluded from banking due to ChexSystems. They are forced to stand in line at Walmart to pay bills, buy expensive prepaid cards, cash checks for 7-15% fees.

https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/ec...nked-countries
Walmart charges 4 dollars to cash a check up to 1000 dollars

So your statement is technically correct for people cashing 24 to 52 dollar checks
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Old 09-03-2021, 04:20 PM
 
475 posts, read 408,050 times
Reputation: 1561
There may be a gold bar sitting in a vault, but so what? You bought your own gold bar instead? Hope you weren't doing that in 1933:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Maybe the Govt will confiscate it, but until they do, doesn't it maintain its "intrinsic value" because it is the most scarce mineral, and because it has industrial value?

There are several minerals more rare/valuable than gold. Platinum, for starters. It too has industrial value. So, if platinum has more valuable characteristics than gold has and is more scarce than gold, then why is it the "gold standard" and not the "platinum standard"?

You are not going to like this answer:

Gold has value because people say it does.

Why does Bitcoin have value? Same reason.

Yes, BOTH things could become worthless if everyone decides they are worthless.

One last point of annoyance for me...the comparison to tulip mania. To those using this as a comparison...tulips can potentially be grown in huge quantities, theoretically almost without limit, and bitcoin quantity is capped via an open-source, decentralized block-chain that limits the total quantity that can EVER be mined. Using this comparison demonstrates you are either ignorant, or willfully being deceptive. Neither is a good look.

Last edited by lpc123; 09-03-2021 at 04:31 PM.. Reason: Clarification, and removed quoted passage (comments are not directed at an individual person)
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Old 09-03-2021, 04:47 PM
 
18,823 posts, read 8,486,845 times
Reputation: 4132
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpc123 View Post
There may be a gold bar sitting in a vault, but so what? You bought your own gold bar instead? Hope you weren't doing that in 1933:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Maybe the Govt will confiscate it, but until they do, doesn't it maintain its "intrinsic value" because it is the most scarce mineral, and because it has industrial value?

There are several minerals more rare/valuable than gold. Platinum, for starters. It too has industrial value. So, if platinum has more valuable characteristics than gold has and is more scarce than gold, then why is it the "gold standard" and not the "platinum standard"?

You are not going to like this answer:

Gold has value because people say it does.

Why does Bitcoin have value? Same reason.

Yes, BOTH things could become worthless if everyone decides they are worthless.

One last point of annoyance for me...the comparison to tulip mania. To those using this as a comparison...tulips can potentially be grown in huge quantities, theoretically almost without limit, and bitcoin quantity is capped via an open-source, decentralized block-chain that limits the total quantity that can EVER be mined. Using this comparison demonstrates you are either ignorant, or willfully being deceptive. Neither is a good look.
A few points. See what you think.

I think the tulip fad is what that is about. Bitcoin could be a fad.

It is like a poorly understood and arcane commodity with no innate value. In fact due to energy consumption it may have negative value to the world as a whole.

A whole lot of people in the world would have to say Gold is worthless. Not nearly so many with Bitcoin.

And Gov'ts can ban Bitcoin and make it worth less depending on which Gov't.

Bitcoin can be broken down into smaller parts. Does that tend to negate its inflation pitch?
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Old 09-03-2021, 05:07 PM
 
5,907 posts, read 4,437,936 times
Reputation: 13447
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpc123 View Post
There may be a gold bar sitting in a vault, but so what? You bought your own gold bar instead? Hope you weren't doing that in 1933:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Maybe the Govt will confiscate it, but until they do, doesn't it maintain its "intrinsic value" because it is the most scarce mineral, and because it has industrial value?

There are several minerals more rare/valuable than gold. Platinum, for starters. It too has industrial value. So, if platinum has more valuable characteristics than gold has and is more scarce than gold, then why is it the "gold standard" and not the "platinum standard"?

You are not going to like this answer:

Gold has value because people say it does.

Why does Bitcoin have value? Same reason.

Yes, BOTH things could become worthless if everyone decides they are worthless.

One last point of annoyance for me...the comparison to tulip mania. To those using this as a comparison...tulips can potentially be grown in huge quantities, theoretically almost without limit, and bitcoin quantity is capped via an open-source, decentralized block-chain that limits the total quantity that can EVER be mined. Using this comparison demonstrates you are either ignorant, or willfully being deceptive.Neither is a good look.
This of course assumes that future batches couldn’t be created just like this current limited batch was. What’s to stop a bitcoin 2.0 or 3.0 or a competitor created later that offers similar or better blockchain features?

Faith in government is questioned…but not faith in…anonymous?
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Old 09-03-2021, 05:27 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
8,182 posts, read 9,221,497 times
Reputation: 3632
Quote:
Originally Posted by djohnslaw View Post
Walmart charges 4 dollars to cash a check up to 1000 dollars

So your statement is technically correct for people cashing 24 to 52 dollar checks
I wonder how picky they are. I was thinking of payday loan fees actually.
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Old 09-03-2021, 08:00 PM
 
475 posts, read 408,050 times
Reputation: 1561
Let's see how many people in North America are estimated to hold Bitcoin (~15M):

https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/...bitcoin-users/

Let's see how many people in the U.S hold gold (~39M):

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...301122041.html

"A whole lot of people in the world would have to say Gold is worthless. Not nearly so many with Bitcoin."

It looks like wide adoption of Bitcoin to this observer.

"What’s to stop a bitcoin 2.0 or 3.0 or a competitor created later "

Nothing, but it would not be Bitcoin.

Last edited by lpc123; 09-03-2021 at 08:04 PM.. Reason: minor correction
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Old 09-03-2021, 08:55 PM
 
9,527 posts, read 30,493,420 times
Reputation: 6440
Digital beanie babies, but clearly not worthless. Question is, do they have intrinsic value? What defines intrinsic Value. If it is a unit of work, then does it count if a computer does the work? What if the work itself has no value, provides no good or service ?
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Old 09-04-2021, 09:05 AM
 
475 posts, read 408,050 times
Reputation: 1561
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYSD1995 View Post
Digital beanie babies, but clearly not worthless. Question is, do they have intrinsic value? What defines intrinsic Value. If it is a unit of work, then does it count if a computer does the work? What if the work itself has no value, provides no good or service ?
Why does it have intrinsic value? It is an agreed-upon (decentralized, open source, limited in quantity) 'system of scarcity.' Thus, it acts as a store of value.

All Bitcoins will eventually be mined. Excessive power use from mining is not a long term thing.
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Old 09-04-2021, 09:32 AM
 
18,823 posts, read 8,486,845 times
Reputation: 4132
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpc123 View Post
Let's see how many people in North America are estimated to hold Bitcoin (~15M):

https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/...bitcoin-users/

Let's see how many people in the U.S hold gold (~39M):

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...301122041.html

"A whole lot of people in the world would have to say Gold is worthless. Not nearly so many with Bitcoin."

It looks like wide adoption of Bitcoin to this observer.

"What’s to stop a bitcoin 2.0 or 3.0 or a competitor created later "

Nothing, but it would not be Bitcoin.
Most nations have significant gold reserves. Very few are embarking on a path to accumulate national Bitcoin.

How are 'forks' different from Bitcoin 2.0?
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Old 09-04-2021, 09:37 AM
 
18,823 posts, read 8,486,845 times
Reputation: 4132
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpc123 View Post
Why does it have intrinsic value? It is an agreed-upon (decentralized, open source, limited in quantity) 'system of scarcity.' Thus, it acts as a store of value.

All Bitcoins will eventually be mined. Excessive power use from mining is not a long term thing.
Intrinsic value is nice to diversify and stabilize a commodities existence and value.

The appearance of numerous competitors, muddles all their value. They tend to draw on the same demographic of investors. Since those competitors arise from essentially nothing, they dilute the related market and value. A bit like inflation.
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