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Old 08-20-2021, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Oak Bowery
2,873 posts, read 2,065,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
Crypto is not worthless. It has a much higher intrinsic value than paper currency because it brings with it an infrastructure (blockchain) that is more efficient and trustworthy for making transactions. There's no question in my mind that eventually the US, EU and China will adopt crypto as legal tender. Over 90% of all transactions in the U.S. are digital dollars now, so it's not that big of a jump for people to use FedCoin on their smartphones.

Bitcoin itself could become worthless though. Really, the only thing it has going for it is that it was first and has name recognition. The very high energy cost of mining it is a real drawback and runs the risk of becoming a bad word, slapped with a carbon tax or even banned.
And investing in the infrastructure behind crypto is another avenue to consider. Something like BLCN might be a good, long term play.

BLCN is one of the first ETFs to focus on blockchain technology. The fund tracks an index of global companies committed to blockchain development.
YMMV of course!
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Old 08-20-2021, 03:55 PM
 
10,864 posts, read 6,499,506 times
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During the last stor,we in TX have no water,no electricity,no phone -land or cell,and no ATM cash withdrawal and long lines at the grocery store.
I was thinking,when I buy bottled water,one litre ,should I save the empty bottle,fill it with just tap water and sell them when another storm hits?
same with batteries,rice,flour,canned goods,dry goods.
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Old 08-20-2021, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Flyover part of Virginia
4,218 posts, read 2,462,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
Crypto has far more utility than gold or silver. You can use blockchain for transferring medical records with 100% security and chain of custody. DHL uses it for package tracking and transactions records. NFT's allow artists, musicians and filmmakers to create content that can be sold to one owner exclusively and there will never be copyright piracy. And, as I've already pointed out, governments and the central banks will adopt it as legal tender; they have to in order to prevent crypto from consuming too much wealth. Some people will refuse to use FedCoin because they prefer the anonymity of cash.
The blockchain technology itself is of some use, but Bitcoin and other cryptos are not, they are nothing more than digital tokens, no more intrinsically valuable than World of Warcraft money.
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Old 08-20-2021, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Flyover part of Virginia
4,218 posts, read 2,462,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
Bitcoin itself could become worthless though. Really, the only thing it has going for it is that it was first and has name recognition. The very high energy cost of mining it is a real drawback and runs the risk of becoming a bad word, slapped with a carbon tax or even banned.
This is the main reason why I believe Bitcoin and cryptos in general are such a scourge- wasting tremendous amounts of energy and resources to produce a worthless digital token that does nothing except fuel the general speculative mania. Degenerate greed at it's very worst.

Last edited by Taggerung; 08-20-2021 at 04:24 PM..
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Old 08-20-2021, 05:18 PM
 
18,823 posts, read 8,486,845 times
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Hard to believe I agree with Taggerung!

Fiat is basically worthless without utility and backing. Bitcoin is an elaborate fiat, that is worth something today because of the intense fad and speculation. It has next to no utility, and the backing is through this arcane computer/energy formula that has no practical real world use.

Gov't could make Bitcoin illegal in one stroke, and that's that. Or the greater fool theory which it is based on, starts to wear the participants down.

Bitcoin is proven so far not worthless. But IMO the future holds most likely downward risks, not up. And if they go up, most likely God help us all, we might be having some sort of terrible global extremis event.

Now crypto might have use as currency, but so far ordinary electronic fiat suffices.
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Old 08-20-2021, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Puna, Hawaii
4,416 posts, read 4,917,248 times
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Cryptos are called the "alternative to fiat".

The backbone of all cryptos including Bitcoin is electricity.

Electricity is paid for in fiat.

Ergo, Bitcoin is a fiat- based asset.

And then there is debt. How many BTC were purchased with debt, how much of the mining equipment is leveraged, etc. If the fiat/debt based backbone of BTC disappears, what happens to the BTC? BTC is not a currency, it's an asset. It's too expensive and slow/clumsy to use for transacting anything other than other assets.

Obviously, a lot of people have made a lot of money with BTC. But BTC doesn't generate fiat, it consumes it (72 tera watt hours of electricity per year, and growing). So where do the "bitcoin millionaires" come from? It comes from new people adopting it. If you think about it this way, it sounds a lot like a pyramid scam. I'm not saying this in a bad way, it's really no different than any of the other asset bubbles.

The thing about all cryptos is that they require energy consumption throughout their entire existence. Compare that to gold, where the energy only has to be used once. A lot of the gold on this planet was mined using energy hundreds or even thousands of years ago. Sure, it takes energy to move it around, and to store it, but a lot of that is optional. Nobody is going to find a bunch of bitcoin in a shipwreck 1,000 years from now and strike it rich.
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Old 08-21-2021, 01:29 AM
 
Location: Flyover part of Virginia
4,218 posts, read 2,462,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terracore View Post
Cryptos are called the "alternative to fiat".

The backbone of all cryptos including Bitcoin is electricity.

Electricity is paid for in fiat.

Ergo, Bitcoin is a fiat- based asset.

And then there is debt. How many BTC were purchased with debt, how much of the mining equipment is leveraged, etc. If the fiat/debt based backbone of BTC disappears, what happens to the BTC? BTC is not a currency, it's an asset. It's too expensive and slow/clumsy to use for transacting anything other than other assets.

Obviously, a lot of people have made a lot of money with BTC. But BTC doesn't generate fiat, it consumes it (72 tera watt hours of electricity per year, and growing). So where do the "bitcoin millionaires" come from? It comes from new people adopting it. If you think about it this way, it sounds a lot like a pyramid scam. I'm not saying this in a bad way, it's really no different than any of the other asset bubbles.

The thing about all cryptos is that they require energy consumption throughout their entire existence. Compare that to gold, where the energy only has to be used once. A lot of the gold on this planet was mined using energy hundreds or even thousands of years ago. Sure, it takes energy to move it around, and to store it, but a lot of that is optional. Nobody is going to find a bunch of bitcoin in a shipwreck 1,000 years from now and strike it rich.
And peak oil and heading over the energy cliff will destroy the viability of cryptos.
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Old 08-21-2021, 05:37 AM
 
5,907 posts, read 4,437,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggerung View Post
Gold and silver were already desirable as commodities in and of themselves long before they were ever minted into coins. They have unique properties that are found in no other metal. Silver in particular is an incredibly useful industrial metal- it's the second most versatile commodity after only oil. Gold also has industrial uses. But even ignoring their industrial or technological uses, they can be used to make jewelry, artifacts, art- you can craft gold/silver into something beautiful. You can't do that with a Bitcoin. Money isn't just a medium of exchange, it needs to have value on its own.
You missed the point entirely and just provided generalities.
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Old 08-21-2021, 05:52 AM
 
7,272 posts, read 4,219,899 times
Reputation: 5468
I guess a lot of folks feel the way I do about bitcoin. I could be totally wrong about it - and early on when bitcoin was $2,500 someone told me I should buy some - and I didn't. I did some research at the time and could only determine that the only value I could find was the virtual ”bitcoin” entity itself and willing membership. I could find no assets to speak of except a ”system”. This was early on and now there are thousands of cryptocurrencies.

So to me - the value of bitcoin is like the mailing list for a magazine or catalog. The influence on a group that is willing to use it. If everything goes to heck in a hand basket and currencies collapse and people run into bitcoin for safety - how do you get the ”value” out of it? People with ”stuff” have to agree to accept ”digital air” backed by nothing as payment. (yes I know that is what the dollar is.)

Very confusing and tulipy. Crypto itself has enormous potential - but to me bitcoin seems like it's destined to be nearly worthless in the end. Just my opinion and I am open to hear alternative viewpoints.
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Old 08-21-2021, 08:05 AM
 
18,823 posts, read 8,486,845 times
Reputation: 4132
Quote:
Originally Posted by terracore View Post
Cryptos are called the "alternative to fiat".

The backbone of all cryptos including Bitcoin is electricity.

Electricity is paid for in fiat.

Ergo, Bitcoin is a fiat- based asset.

And then there is debt. How many BTC were purchased with debt, how much of the mining equipment is leveraged, etc. If the fiat/debt based backbone of BTC disappears, what happens to the BTC? BTC is not a currency, it's an asset. It's too expensive and slow/clumsy to use for transacting anything other than other assets.

Obviously, a lot of people have made a lot of money with BTC. But BTC doesn't generate fiat, it consumes it (72 tera watt hours of electricity per year, and growing). So where do the "bitcoin millionaires" come from? It comes from new people adopting it. If you think about it this way, it sounds a lot like a pyramid scam. I'm not saying this in a bad way, it's really no different than any of the other asset bubbles.

The thing about all cryptos is that they require energy consumption throughout their entire existence. Compare that to gold, where the energy only has to be used once. A lot of the gold on this planet was mined using energy hundreds or even thousands of years ago. Sure, it takes energy to move it around, and to store it, but a lot of that is optional. Nobody is going to find a bunch of bitcoin in a shipwreck 1,000 years from now and strike it rich.
My mistake. Above I should have said 'Currency', not 'Fiat'.

And I agree that calling it more of an asset than a currency is based on some of it inherent problems as a currency.

I would think that the backbone of cryptos in general is computational power first, then electricity and some degree of time. The latter 2 being more inherent problems with Bitcoin, vs say a potential sovereign crypto. I would think that if quantum computing were to come on soon enough, then Bitcoins could be generated and possibly more easily stolen or forged with minimal electricity and time.
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