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Old 08-21-2021, 08:14 AM
 
18,823 posts, read 8,484,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illtaketwoplease View Post
I guess a lot of folks feel the way I do about bitcoin. I could be totally wrong about it - and early on when bitcoin was $2,500 someone told me I should buy some - and I didn't. I did some research at the time and could only determine that the only value I could find was the virtual ”bitcoin” entity itself and willing membership. I could find no assets to speak of except a ”system”. This was early on and now there are thousands of cryptocurrencies.

So to me - the value of bitcoin is like the mailing list for a magazine or catalog. The influence on a group that is willing to use it. If everything goes to heck in a hand basket and currencies collapse and people run into bitcoin for safety - how do you get the ”value” out of it? People with ”stuff” have to agree to accept ”digital air” backed by nothing as payment. (yes I know that is what the dollar is.)

Very confusing and tulipy. Crypto itself has enormous potential - but to me bitcoin seems like it's destined to be nearly worthless in the end. Just my opinion and I am open to hear alternative viewpoints.
When the value of Bitcoin or other fad cryptos are influenced so easily by measly publicized anecdotes, that should send a loud beware signal, and why they fail as stable stores of value. Another reason they fail as currency.
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Old 08-21-2021, 08:53 AM
 
9,376 posts, read 6,989,562 times
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It's worth what the next person is willing to pay.
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Old 08-21-2021, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Arizona
3,159 posts, read 2,736,335 times
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Crypto as a currency is bad because anything that can be so easily manipulated is risky to say the least. If the gov't steps in and regulates it (near certainty) then it will be just like any other currency.
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Old 08-21-2021, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
296 posts, read 246,721 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggerung View Post
Can you do anything with a Bitcoin, other than give to someone else? No? Then yes, it's fundamentally worthless.

Silver and gold have real utility, which is why they became money in the first place. They were both highly sought after luxury commodities long before they were minted into coins. Even national fiat currencies have not utility than a Bitcoin- you can at least burn a paper dollar, or perhaps make a bracelet out of it.
Yep, Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It has no utility besides giving it to others. It's not a physical object, so that makes it even worse. It's not worthless, because others are willing to exchange useful goods and services for it. Eventually, it will become worthless when people refuse to trade for it.
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Old 08-21-2021, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
807 posts, read 898,925 times
Reputation: 1391
Quote:
Originally Posted by illtaketwoplease View Post
I guess a lot of folks feel the way I do about bitcoin. I could be totally wrong about it - and early on when bitcoin was $2,500 someone told me I should buy some - and I didn't. I did some research at the time and could only determine that the only value I could find was the virtual ”bitcoin” entity itself and willing membership. I could find no assets to speak of except a ”system”. This was early on and now there are thousands of cryptocurrencies.

So to me - the value of bitcoin is like the mailing list for a magazine or catalog. The influence on a group that is willing to use it. If everything goes to heck in a hand basket and currencies collapse and people run into bitcoin for safety - how do you get the ”value” out of it? People with ”stuff” have to agree to accept ”digital air” backed by nothing as payment. (yes I know that is what the dollar is.)

Very confusing and tulipy. Crypto itself has enormous potential - but to me bitcoin seems like it's destined to be nearly worthless in the end. Just my opinion and I am open to hear alternative viewpoints.
Initially I wasn't sure if you are speaking only about bitcoin (BTC) specifically, or cryptocurrencies in general. My post covers crypto as a whole but they apply to my opinion about BTC. Not much difference other than in execution and popularity, BTC is the first and most popular. People talk about how inefficient it is however ethereum (ETH) is said to address a lot of those computational inefficiencies.

First concept is to keep in mind that for all things tradable, physical attributes are only 1 potential value to anything. An example of a nonphysical attributes would be ideas. This is a proven concept for things protected by patents, trademarks, copyrights, and the like.

In general attitude and sentiment, I am like you and some others here where I naturally assign value to physical items. But again keep in mind that physical items just happen to be easy to attribute a value to and does not mean that non-physical things cannot have value.

Therefore from that base perspective, I look at the crypto thing as it exists TODAY and I would say that yes crypto has no physical value built into it, however it still has other value because people have assigned value to them. It doesn't matter why, the base question is simply if a cryptocurrency has value or not.

That being said, there's nothing stopping crypto from further establishing those non-physical fundamentals. The more usage it gets and the more difficult it is to remove from daily use and exchange, the stronger its fundamentals become. I'll also point out that in reality just plain "use" does have value, at least for a set time period. For example there are still folks using AOL services in some form or another. They started using it in the past and just stuck with it. They may change out tomorrow but in in the meantime, AOL continues to have value to them. So even if you argue that BTC will be superseded by some better future cryptocurrency, there will be many years in between (like right now) where BTC is clearly usable.

So what is the basis of the non-physical value that people attribute to it? A total believer can probably give you a better sales pitch but offhand, my impression is that a unit of exchange (I won't call it money) that works independently of existing banking infrastructure has value to some people. Thus, even if the U.S. government bans cryptocurrency, as long as anybody continues to use it because they value this method of exchange, crytpo will have some value. It may be far less than now, it may become more than now if scarcity and demand call for it, just like for any black market item.

The overall value is clearly still in flux, what with cryptocurrency's growth into the mainstream being new. So if your thread here on City-Data convinces a lot of people to stay away, then in a sense you can be said to have asked the question "Is BTC worthless?" while at the same time actively devaluing BTC [not necessarily on purpose]. On the other hand, if your thread somehow influences more people to accept and use BTC, you will have ended up asking the question while taking action that works against your own position.

In the end, I'd say this is complicated enough where maybe the right answer to this is the classic "it has whatever value people assign to it." You and others don't want to use it, it therefore doesn't have value to you. Others do want to use it, it has value to them.

If the actual intended opening question was intended to be, "Is bitcoin worth its current dollar price" then that's pretty different. To ask this, you would be accepting that there is some kind of fundamental (but non-physical value) attributed to it but it's just that it is too high. I generally feel this way too but also recognize that I cannot collect enough information to determine definitively if BTC/ETH/etc. should be lower or higher.
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Old 08-21-2021, 12:44 PM
 
10,513 posts, read 5,174,239 times
Reputation: 14056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
When the value of Bitcoin or other fad cryptos are influenced so easily by measly publicized anecdotes, that should send a loud beware signal, and why they fail as stable stores of value. Another reason they fail as currency.
Right, non-government cryptos do fail as currency. Crypto fans say that's a feature they want, to have a store of value that floats independent of any government. Pretty much a libertarian gold bug thing.

However, government-endorsed crypto (as legal tender) will make an excellent currency. Want to buy something at a yard sale? Buyer and seller hold their phones next to each other. An instant and secure transaction of FedCoin money happens instantaneously. No cash, no change, no credit card fees, no slow-as-heck ACH transfers. Sign me up.
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Old 08-21-2021, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,661 posts, read 9,482,550 times
Reputation: 22998
Bitcoin is a digital asset. It’s a digital version of gold. You buy, hold, and never sell it until it’s time to retire. And even then, you don’t sell it, you either borrow money to use Bitcoin as collateral or slowly pull out 1%

The real money is in altcoins. NFTs are different, people are paying 6-7 figures for what’s basically a digital copyrighted version of something.
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Old 08-21-2021, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,661 posts, read 9,482,550 times
Reputation: 22998
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvalens View Post
Eventually, it will become worthless when people refuse to trade for it.
Not true. Too many people have lost their Bitcoin accounts, passwords, or have even died for Bitcoin to ever become worthless.

A billionaire Bitcoin holder just died recently.

Quote:
Major bitcoin investor Mircea Popescu suddenly died, leaving behind a cryptocurrency fortune reportedly worth over $2 billion. Popescu, 41, drowned last week off the coast of Costa Rica, local reports said. His death has prompted questions about what will happen to Popescu's enormous bitcoin fortune.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bitc...fortune-2021-7
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Old 08-21-2021, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,661 posts, read 9,482,550 times
Reputation: 22998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
Gov't could make Bitcoin illegal in one stroke, and that's that.
Never going to happen, they already plan to tax it to pay for the infrastructure bill.
Quote:
$28 billion. That’s how much Congress’ Joint Committee on Taxation estimates the enhanced reporting requirements proposal would generate in fiscal revenue over the next decade by giving taxpayers and the IRS more visibility into taxes owed from crypto transactions.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonatha...aire-pushback/

Also, you can’t “ban Bitcoin” you would have to ban the exchanges.
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Old 08-21-2021, 06:24 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
8,182 posts, read 9,220,608 times
Reputation: 3632
Bitcoin is the largest, most secure, decentralized, distributed computer in the world. Access to this network is limited, access to the ticket to get in is limited.

If you are looking to move value to anyone, anywhere in the world, quickly and efficiently, you pick Bitcoin. It is permissionless, trustless and highly accurate.
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