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Old 11-03-2021, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas & San Diego
6,909 posts, read 3,311,919 times
Reputation: 8618

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
The concept of leaving everything up to "the market" is the whole problem. What happens when workers are replaced by robots and "the market" decides 99% of the population is surplus to requirements?
This whole thread is in the ECONOMICS forum - not the what I wish was true forum. That is how the market works, where the market drives wages unless laws force something different.

With progress, jobs go away and others are created because of changes in technology and need. How many furriers were replaced by auto mechanics, how many manure removal services were replaced by gas station attendants, etc.

Quote:
I mean, it's trivial to demonstrate that "the market" is not a sufficient organizer of society. Children have no current economic value at all, and only survive by non-market charity from parents and the government. Do you think that we err in letting children live? What about disabled people? Roads and parks don't provide any direct revenue, should we replace them with more Starbucks? Maybe we should monetize oxygen?
You really don't understand market forces the concept of the society if you think that children "have no economic value" or need to have value to be accommodated or need to monetize oxygen.

Quote:
The Market again
.
Yes, this is a thread about the market forces.

Quote:
Teachers work a lot more than that, where did you get these numbers. Also, who cares.
Who cares. Hey everybody, I just spent 160 hours a week throwing rocks into the air and catching them, why aren't I being paid millions of dollars for my valuable work? I guarantee I do less damage to society by catching rocks than Wall Street investors do at their jobs. Should I get paid double what they do because I worked double the hours? Maybe 4x as more because doing effectively nothing is more valuable to society than anything they do? What is your criteria here? For someone who disagreed with my central thesis that pay is determined solely by Capital, it doesn't seem like you have any answer beyond "pay is determined by Capital".
The number of hours for a teacher came from analysis of the data from the American Time Use Survey (ATUS) that asks people from many professions to log there work activity of full time teachers with a college degree - the data was published in by MIT (mit.edu). Obviously you care since you asked the question.

You want to ignore the useful work necessary to get those earnings - throwing a stick is not an economic activity, need to learn the difference.

Quote:
It's definitely a socialist rant but it's also true.
Your socialist rant is not true, it is not politics, it is market forces that determine value - that is the economics. You provided nothing to the contrary to prove or even defend your statement.

Quote:
Interesting distancing language here. You repeatedly argue that it's not Billionaires or Capital who make decisions, it's The Market or The Economy. Who runs the market? Who runs the economy? Shifting blame to the economy is just a transparent ploy that fools no one. Bosses refuse to pay workers more than the minimum and then shrug and say "what can you do, that's the economy for you!"
I am not distancing by telling the truth - markets determine the values - supply and demand - nobody "runs" the market. The market determines a workers value, not the bosses - you really do not understand how markets work.

Quote:
A thinking man would consider other aspects like ethics, or value to society, when determining compensation. Nobody would be working on Wall Street at all without teachers, yet we're supposed to believe that teaching is low-value work. Only the most motivated thinkers could follow that logic.
You are far from a "thinking man" if do not understand economic forces. You continue to show your bias, where did I say anything close to teaching was "low value work" - I only stated that value is determined by the market - that does not mean "low value" by any means.

Again, this is the economics forum - wanting something to be true is not reality, discussion of the economics is absolutely the logic that is being followed.

Last edited by ddeemo; 11-03-2021 at 12:19 PM..

 
Old 11-03-2021, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas & San Diego
6,909 posts, read 3,311,919 times
Reputation: 8618
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
This is completely irrelevant. An hour of teaching is worth far more than an hour of stock swapping and downsizing. The financial sector is 20% of the economy and it produces nothing. That's what happens when you let the wolves run the hen house for fifty years.
The statement is only irrelevant if do not understand economics or market forces.

It is interesting that say downsizing when most financial activity is involved in taking businesses in the opposite direction.
 
Old 11-03-2021, 04:51 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,008 posts, read 2,256,300 times
Reputation: 2147
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
You do realize that my numbers account for your, "risen prices?" Well OK, clearly not. Think it over and report back.
You can not afford to share an apartment with roommates on $4.86 an hour let alone have enough for food or a car. Prices continue to go up but you think min wage should only go up $4.61 in over 50 years? That makes no sense at all.
 
Old 11-03-2021, 05:39 PM
 
21,722 posts, read 9,282,207 times
Reputation: 19165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tencent View Post
Yeah Boomers are the most privileged generation dude...

In the history textbooks Millennials will be respected as cleaning up all their mess.


My grandmother was born right after the Depression and she had a more realistic outlook on jobs and labor. She worked for the post office and dept of education. She said never trust private employers they'll always hang you out to dry - I'm in a F500 and she is right...
I interact with millennials all day long. Trust me. They aren't cleaning up anything.
 
Old 11-03-2021, 05:44 PM
 
21,722 posts, read 9,282,207 times
Reputation: 19165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tencent View Post
I feel for you, but again Blame Boomers.

Boomer hiring managers mandated that all jobs require a degree which skyrocketed the value and thus cost of a degree. You grew up during a time where it was even fathomable to pay for a decent degree plus there was more financial aid. Financial aid has dried up for most GOOD degree programs and nobody makes 80k a year WITHOUT a degree to pay 40k annually for a GOOD school.

I've said this quite a few times but my private school education while more expensive allowed me to get opportunities which would have been impossible for a CUNY/SUNY grad. I get callbacks whereas Baruch grads are routinely discriminated against because it's perceived as a run of the mill school now and easily replaceable.

This entire system of privilege and social stature focused hiring based on name brand/value - Boomers set that up. Period. (Affluent White Boomers specifically). If I had a low cost degree I'd be working at Home Depot now. No debt, but earning minimum wage. Gen X had to bust their a** yeah, but at least you guys had the option. Millennials we're presented with a catch 22 cliffhanger sink or swim option. Right now I'm (perilously) paragliding over the abyss and most of my cohort is down in the dirt.
THAT's why you think college costs skyrocketed?

The reason college costs skyrocketed is because of subsidized student loans being given out like candy. I know people who lived off of them and bought expensive handbags and took pricey vacations. Colleges built fancy fitness centers, art centers and all kinds of amenities. And you have many students from Asia who pay full fare increasing demand and driving up the prices.
 
Old 11-03-2021, 05:57 PM
 
107 posts, read 118,068 times
Reputation: 155
I have been surprised and pleased to learn what an insightful individual is the leader of Russia, Vladimir Putin. Not the sterotype at all, In fact, he's warning us now that our present course is risky. When asked about President Trump, the phenomena, his reply was that the key to success was that Mr. Trump recognized that the middle class had been left behind in this long run of American prosperity.
 
Old 11-03-2021, 07:18 PM
 
19,536 posts, read 17,788,402 times
Reputation: 17054
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Eagle View Post
You can not afford to share an apartment with roommates on $4.86 an hour let alone have enough for food or a car. Prices continue to go up but you think min wage should only go up $4.61 in over 50 years? That makes no sense at all.
I'm saying in buying power terms $0.25 in 1938 = $4.86 today.
 
Old 11-03-2021, 09:19 PM
 
10,864 posts, read 6,350,081 times
Reputation: 7956
why go to college ,go work for John Deer,
or goto truck driver school,starting salary $60K.
 
Old 11-03-2021, 09:35 PM
 
10,513 posts, read 5,119,733 times
Reputation: 14056
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
...The financial sector is 20% of the economy and it produces nothing...
I'm a liberal, so I'm not always fond of the Big Bad Banks, but even I recognize the economy can't function without the financial sector writing commercial paper, underwriting insurance policies, providing brokerage for agricultural futures, underwriting corporate bonds and so on. They serve a vital role but need to be regulated -- the excesses that led to the 2008 crash is proof of that.
 
Old 11-04-2021, 04:52 AM
 
107 posts, read 118,068 times
Reputation: 155
I can only speak for myself, but over the years we have seen computerized, commission-free, trading turn the stock exchanges into casinos. Why trouble one's self with the fundamentals of industry and markets when you can simply sit back and play the market -- buy in the morning, sell in the afternoon -- and, if you are big enough, create those swings all by yourself, or, if not so big, pump and dump.
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