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Old 03-13-2022, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,060 posts, read 7,229,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
<shrug> So be it. Market economy 101 - if the price of labor makes it infeasible to man the drive-through and retain the current prices, then prices will go up, fewer consumers will want the product, and more drive-through places will close. If your business model won't work if the price of labor goes up, then it's time to find a new one. The existence of drive-though fast food isn't a law of nature.

The only thing that as changed is that power has shifted - very slightly - to the worker. And I'm sure the powers that be are working very hard to get that stopped.
It hasn't *really* shifted to the worker, though. It's just that housing is now beyind what the the working and middle classes can afford. There's no point to working a job that is not worth it to work. If working my career will not put a roof over my head, well, I'll go live with mom and doordash for 3 hours a day to afford food. Works out the same as being a teacher.

But now we're doing it to workers YOU need, who USED to be able to afford to live a few years ago. Your kids need teachers, right? You need a nurse when you go to the doctor's office, right?

In this case we're pricing out public education and basic services.

It's like the whole country is becoming Jackson Hole. Just read about housing cost in Miami going haywire. Florida, where it's supposed to be cheap and run by Republicans.

Who will serve those of you with money who want to be served? We can't all live in trailers.
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Old 03-13-2022, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Maine
3,536 posts, read 2,855,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
<shrug> So be it. Market economy 101 - if the price of labor makes it infeasible to man the drive-through and retain the current prices, then prices will go up, fewer consumers will want the product, and more drive-through places will close. If your business model won't work if the price of labor goes up, then it's time to find a new one. The existence of drive-though fast food isn't a law of nature.

The only thing that as changed is that power has shifted - very slightly - to the worker. And I'm sure the powers that be are working very hard to get that stopped.
The only thing that as changed is that power has shifted - very slightly - to the worker. And I'm sure the powers that be are working very hard to get that stopped.

Hence why our southern border is wide open...
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Old 03-13-2022, 03:38 PM
 
4,295 posts, read 2,762,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody01 View Post
I wonder....Will everyone urging employers to just pay more, be ok with paying the increased prices for goods and services that will be the result? I doubt it.
It seems they are rising, anyways. With that being said, I don't mind paying a few cents more for my burger so that someone can have a better life.

The question to ask might be, do you want a health care professional caring for you or a loved one who is working a double shift (or possibly a third shift) due to the shortage?
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Old 03-13-2022, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
3,834 posts, read 4,437,964 times
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I will add this: I think those low paying jobs will probably just disappear, whether it's because employers are able to automate those jobs (I believe McDonalds and Walmart have been experimenting with this), or outsource them to India, or in worst case scenarios, those employers go out of business as they cannot afford to hire workers.

So the hope I have is that those people who were previously stuck in those dead end jobs have truly been able to put themselves in better positions to where those McJobs are no longer needed, because I believe in the next ten to twenty years, those jobs will have largely disappeared from the US workplace.
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Old 03-13-2022, 03:42 PM
 
4,295 posts, read 2,762,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
I will add this: I think those low paying jobs will probably just disappear, whether it's because employers are able to automate those jobs (I believe McDonalds and Walmart have been experimenting with this), or outsource them to India, or in worst case scenarios, those employers go out of business as they cannot afford to hire workers.

So the hope I have is that those people who were previously stuck in those dead end jobs have truly been able to put themselves in better positions to where those McJobs are no longer needed, because I believe in the next ten to twenty years, those jobs will have largely disappeared from the US workplace.
I think some will disappear for the reasons you stated, however, some are here to stay (such as CNA jobs, teacher assistants, etc.). Will some rise above? Yes. Will they all? No. The fact is, not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, teacher, etc. But they still provide a service to society.
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Old 03-13-2022, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
3,834 posts, read 4,437,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeko156 View Post
I think some will disappear for the reasons you stated, however, some are here to stay (such as CNA jobs, teacher assistants, etc.). Will some rise above? Yes. Will they all? No. The fact is, not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, teacher, etc. But they still provide a service to society.
Not disagreeing with you, but I'm curious as to how some of these jobs will still be viable in the US going forward. CNA jobs in the DFW area I live in pays $13/hr. Teacher aides are probably around the same. And for those jobs you have to be at least 18 so they cannot be staffed by high school teenagers who would take that kind of money. I can personally testify that CNA jobs are hard work as my wife worked as one while in nursing school and my oldest kid is currently one now. Yet as many have already mentioned, the cost of living, especially housing has skyrocketed. I wonder how employers for these type of jobs will be able to attract qualified talent for these jobs in the future. We can already see from the OP in this thread that it's already difficult right now.
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Old 03-13-2022, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Elysium
12,382 posts, read 8,136,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody01 View Post
I wonder....Will everyone urging employers to just pay more, be ok with paying the increased prices for goods and services that will be the result? I doubt it.
Well what option is there? You can't go to foreign lands kidnap workers and keep their progeny to provide cheaper labor. If you have to pay the janitorial staff more than the PhD because so many people or willing to go to school in an attempt to avoid physical labor then so be it.
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Old 03-13-2022, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Coastal Georgia
50,335 posts, read 63,906,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
People stepped back, and asked themselves: "If 8 solid hours of work can't pay 24 hours of rent and utilities, food, clothing, healthcare and perhaps even a little bit of those activities that makes us human, what is the point?"
But what are they doing instead?
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Old 03-13-2022, 05:07 PM
 
5,527 posts, read 3,247,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlearts View Post
But what are they doing instead?
Who knows, it's somewhat mysterious.

I suspect that most are living with parents or relatives. This could be a side effect of millions of households owning paid-off houses.

Once again, Japan foreshadowed all of this. You saw the same trends in the 2000s in Japan: a bifurcating labor market between salaried and temp workers, the latter group dropping in and out of the formal economy, and lots of adult children living with their parents and not engaging with society.
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Old 03-13-2022, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
7,058 posts, read 9,074,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
And an employee costs what he/she is willing to work for. If the job can't be filled at that rate, then the business model has a problem.

Ridiculous. You can't just go and demand whatever wage you think you 'deserve' and expect it to be granted, and if it isn't then blame the 'business model'. It doesn't, and shouldn't, work that way. You want to go in and demand $50/hr to flip burgers? Sorry, no job for you. A wage is a bargain negotiated between the one who wants to hire and the one who wants to work, if the two can't agree on the price then each looks for a different position/candidate.



Quote:
And people should really stop acting as if their willingness to be abused by 100-hour weeks is some sort of flex.

Also ridiculous. It's not a 'willingness to be abused', it's a willingness to work hard to get what I wanted.


I'll tell you a little story. After I left the Army in the '80s, I was recruited to do the same thing I had been doing on a different basis. I did not retain that position because I became uncomfortable with the leadership and certain methods that were being employed. So, I returned to Killeen (TX) where there were few opportunities at the time and there was not a market for my particular skill set. I ended up working at a car wash for $2.25/hr, it was less than min wage but they got away with it because they claimed we were 'tipped' employees. In reality, only the girls in bikinis toweling off the cars as they came out of the wash got any tips. I and the other guys doing the vacuuming and whitewall cleaning (the hard work) did not get tips.


My paycheck just barely covered my rent and utilities, with nothing left for food. Whether or not I ate on any particular day, and what, depended on how much loose change got sucked into the vacuum cleaners that I emptied at the end of the day. When I ate, it was often just beans and bread. Bad luck cost me my car so I walked to work and back, a couple of miles each day. I knew I had to do something different, but I didn't know what.


Then, on Thanksgiving, there was no work, I had just enough money to buy a cup of coffee at the restaurant down the road (and leave a tip for the waitress) and I didn't feel like spending the day alone. I figured I could sit there for a bit and just smell the turkey I couldn't afford to buy. As luck would have it, apparently the dishwasher quit or had got drunk and didn't show up or something, the restaurant owner approached me and said he would feed me if I would wash dishes for him. I didn't ask him what made him think I was hungry and might be open to accepting his offer, but I was willing. At the end of the day, he apparently liked my work and asked if I could come back so we came to the agreement that when I got done at the car wash I would go there and wash dishes- he got clean dishes and I got to eat on a regular basis.


After a couple of weeks, the owner asked me if I could help him remodel the bar for a few hours each night after the restaurant closed, and he would pay me in cash to do it. Now I would have some extra money and worked out a plan- I saved as much money as I could until I had enough for a bus ticket to Boston where there was more opportunity. It was a three day trip and the couple of bucks I had left after buying the ticket didn't go very far eating out of vending machines. Some kind girl gave me an apple one day, I didn't ask, she offered. I don't know if she ever knew just how much I appreciated that. (I have 'paid it forward' many times over.)


I hit Boston with 11 cents in my pocket, just enough to make a phone call with a penny left over. I called a fellow I knew and cadged a ride and a couch. It was still Winter in the NE and I wangled a job driving a front-end loader clearing snow. It wasn't regular and dependable, but it was enough to rent a room for a while. Then I got a min wage job at a Mickey D's in the next town. I walked five miles to work each day, and five back. My meals came out of the 'waste' bin (any food more than 10 minutes old, that hadn't been sold, had to get 'wasted'). I got pretty darned good at flipping burgers- I could handle an 8-turn (eight 1/4 pounders down every 30 seconds) including dressing the buns without any help, for a 12-turn I needed an assistant to put the condiments on (she was cross-eyed as all get-out and I don't know how she managed to do it without making a mess, but she did).


Was it a great living? No, but it was a 'living wage'- it was enough to rent a room, and eat, with a little left over. I saved every penny I could (eating from the 'waste' bin let me save more) until I had enough money to buy a crappy old p/u truck and pay for reg and insurance so I didn't have to walk anymore. After a while, I worked myself into a regular full-time position where I was responsible for opening and working through the lunch rush. At that point, I asked for a raise, and they gave me a nickel. OK, time for a new plan.


I kept working, and kept saving, until I had enough money to put down on a newer (more reliable) vehicle...and buy a gun. A dependable vehicle and a gun allowed me to pursue jobs that were more relevant to my military skills and paid more. I began working for government and private agencies. I never made enough to get 'rich' and there were setbacks due to injuries (shot in the face, broken bones, slashed with broken bottles, stabbed, etc.) and unforeseen circumstances (crooked Air Force OSI officer, crooked PD officers, apartment building sold to developer for condos, etc.) but not one GD time did I ever think that anyone owed me any particular standard of living for working a mere 40 hours a week.


I worked my ass off to afford my lifestyle and pay for college. At times I had to do without 'luxuries', at one point I sold my TVs and eliminated cable because I figured that if I didn't have enough money to do what I wanted to do, then I had no business sitting on my ass in front of the TV and bitc...er, grousing about it.


How you live, depends on the decisions you make on what to do with what you have. *You* decide what you are going to spend money on and how much you are going to spend on it. *You* decide on what you want, and how hard you are willing to work to get it. Nobody 'owes' you any particular standard of living. If the 'circumstances' of your situation (location, opportunity, etc.) are not to your satisfaction, then it is up to *you* to change your circumstances.


I have lived through hard times, and made the hard decisions, to get to where I am. Things are still not 'easy', Covid has ruined my health and there are still going to be hard times ahead but I have a plan. I did not foresee (five or ten years ago) the damage that Covid was going to do but I will deal with it.


I don't want to hear jack squat about meek little kitty cats (can I say '*******' here?) whining about a 'living wage'. If you don't like what you've got, then do something to change it, or **** and GTFO. You have the 'right' to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, no one 'owes' you any more than that. It's up to you to make the decision to pursue it, and to follow through on your decisions. Can't do what you want where you're at? Then go somewhere else, where you can. The only one stopping you, is *YOU*.



You want a better living situation? It's up to you to make it happen. You want kids? It's up to you to feed and support them...it's not my business...and not my job.You have no 'right' to take *my* money to finance your [poor] decisions. I have seen far too many people make the decisions they need to make, and do the things they need to do to get to where they want to be to fall for this bulltwaddle. Let me tell you the story of Ozene Dean...


...Ozene Dean was an old 'black' man. After my mother screwed my father out of their house and every thing they owned, my father was living on rented land with an old horse barn, in a 21'travel trailer' while trying to build an oil business. Ozene Dean showed up one night, with a shopping cart full of scrap that he had picked from the street and out of dumpsters, asking if he could sleep in the barn. My old man, being not far from the position that Ozene was in, let him sleep there. And it continued, Ozene was dirty and unwashed, he literally had maggots in his beard from his 'dumpster diving'. This is not 'rumor', I saw it.


I saw Ozene going out daily, picking up scrap. He would return with his shopping cart. Items that he could repair, he fixed and sold at flea markets. Things that were not repairable, he sorted and sold as scrap metal. He saved his pennies, until he was able to buy a small truck. With the truck, he was able to increase the amount of items he was able to scavenge and sell either as repaired or scrap. I watched Ozene build himself up from, literally, nothing. The last time I saw Ozene Dean, he was driving a brand-new Lincoln Continental, for which he paid cash by dint of his hard work and desire.


For everyone clamoring about a 'living wage', all I have is a hearty 'merry xmas'...no, wait, those aren't the words I want, I have two other words in mind...The opportunity is here, you just have to go out and take it. No one 'owes' you anything. **** and/or GTFO...maybe you could go to Russia and live with Putin?
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