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Old 03-13-2022, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
3,834 posts, read 4,439,529 times
Reputation: 6120

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zymer View Post
Ridiculous. You can't just go and demand whatever wage you think you 'deserve' and expect it to be granted, and if it isn't then blame the 'business model'. It doesn't, and shouldn't, work that way. You want to go in and demand $50/hr to flip burgers? Sorry, no job for you. A wage is a bargain negotiated between the one who wants to hire and the one who wants to work, if the two can't agree on the price then each looks for a different position/candidate.






Also ridiculous. It's not a 'willingness to be abused', it's a willingness to work hard to get what I wanted.


I'll tell you a little story. After I left the Army in the '80s, I was recruited to do the same thing I had been doing on a different basis. I did not retain that position because I became uncomfortable with the leadership and certain methods that were being employed. So, I returned to Killeen (TX) where there were few opportunities at the time and there was not a market for my particular skill set. I ended up working at a car wash for $2.25/hr, it was less than min wage but they got away with it because they claimed we were 'tipped' employees. In reality, only the girls in bikinis toweling off the cars as they came out of the wash got any tips. I and the other guys doing the vacuuming and whitewall cleaning (the hard work) did not get tips.


My paycheck just barely covered my rent and utilities, with nothing left for food. Whether or not I ate on any particular day, and what, depended on how much loose change got sucked into the vacuum cleaners that I emptied at the end of the day. When I ate, it was often just beans and bread. Bad luck cost me my car so I walked to work and back, a couple of miles each day. I knew I had to do something different, but I didn't know what.


Then, on Thanksgiving, there was no work, I had just enough money to buy a cup of coffee at the restaurant down the road (and leave a tip for the waitress) and I didn't feel like spending the day alone. I figured I could sit there for a bit and just smell the turkey I couldn't afford to buy. As luck would have it, apparently the dishwasher quit or had got drunk and didn't show up or something, the restaurant owner approached me and said he would feed me if I would wash dishes for him. I didn't ask him what made him think I was hungry and might be open to accepting his offer, but I was willing. At the end of the day, he apparently liked my work and asked if I could come back so we came to the agreement that when I got done at the car wash I would go there and wash dishes- he got clean dishes and I got to eat on a regular basis.


After a couple of weeks, the owner asked me if I could help him remodel the bar for a few hours each night after the restaurant closed, and he would pay me in cash to do it. Now I would have some extra money and worked out a plan- I saved as much money as I could until I had enough for a bus ticket to Boston where there was more opportunity. It was a three day trip and the couple of bucks I had left after buying the ticket didn't go very far eating out of vending machines. Some kind girl gave me an apple one day, I didn't ask, she offered. I don't know if she ever knew just how much I appreciated that. (I have 'paid it forward' many times over.)


I hit Boston with 11 cents in my pocket, just enough to make a phone call with a penny left over. I called a fellow I knew and cadged a ride and a couch. It was still Winter in the NE and I wangled a job driving a front-end loader clearing snow. It wasn't regular and dependable, but it was enough to rent a room for a while. Then I got a min wage job at a Mickey D's in the next town. I walked five miles to work each day, and five back. My meals came out of the 'waste' bin (any food more than 10 minutes old, that hadn't been sold, had to get 'wasted'). I got pretty darned good at flipping burgers- I could handle an 8-turn (eight 1/4 pounders down every 30 seconds) including dressing the buns without any help, for a 12-turn I needed an assistant to put the condiments on (she was cross-eyed as all get-out and I don't know how she managed to do it without making a mess, but she did).


Was it a great living? No, but it was a 'living wage'- it was enough to rent a room, and eat, with a little left over. I saved every penny I could (eating from the 'waste' bin let me save more) until I had enough money to buy a crappy old p/u truck and pay for reg and insurance so I didn't have to walk anymore. After a while, I worked myself into a regular full-time position where I was responsible for opening and working through the lunch rush. At that point, I asked for a raise, and they gave me a nickel. OK, time for a new plan.


I kept working, and kept saving, until I had enough money to put down on a newer (more reliable) vehicle...and buy a gun. A dependable vehicle and a gun allowed me to pursue jobs that were more relevant to my military skills and paid more. I began working for government and private agencies. I never made enough to get 'rich' and there were setbacks due to injuries (shot in the face, broken bones, slashed with broken bottles, stabbed, etc.) and unforeseen circumstances (crooked Air Force OSI officer, crooked PD officers, apartment building sold to developer for condos, etc.) but not one GD time did I ever think that anyone owed me any particular standard of living for working a mere 40 hours a week.


I worked my ass off to afford my lifestyle and pay for college. At times I had to do without 'luxuries', at one point I sold my TVs and eliminated cable because I figured that if I didn't have enough money to do what I wanted to do, then I had no business sitting on my ass in front of the TV and bitc...er, grousing about it.


How you live, depends on the decisions you make on what to do with what you have. *You* decide what you are going to spend money on and how much you are going to spend on it. *You* decide on what you want, and how hard you are willing to work to get it. Nobody 'owes' you any particular standard of living. If the 'circumstances' of your situation (location, opportunity, etc.) are not to your satisfaction, then it is up to *you* to change your circumstances.


I have lived through hard times, and made the hard decisions, to get to where I am. Things are still not 'easy', Covid has ruined my health and there are still going to be hard times ahead but I have a plan. I did not foresee (five or ten years ago) the damage that Covid was going to do but I will deal with it.


I don't want to hear jack squat about meek little kitty cats (can I say '*******' here?) whining about a 'living wage'. If you don't like what you've got, then do something to change it, or **** and GTFO. You have the 'right' to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, no one 'owes' you any more than that. It's up to you to make the decision to pursue it, and to follow through on your decisions. Can't do what you want where you're at? Then go somewhere else, where you can. The only one stopping you, is *YOU*.



You want a better living situation? It's up to you to make it happen. You want kids? It's up to you to feed and support them...it's not my business...and not my job.You have no 'right' to take *my* money to finance your [poor] decisions. I have seen far too many people make the decisions they need to make, and do the things they need to do to get to where they want to be to fall for this bulltwaddle. Let me tell you the story of Ozene Dean...


...Ozene Dean was an old 'black' man. After my mother screwed my father out of their house and every thing they owned, my father was living on rented land with an old horse barn, in a 21'travel trailer' while trying to build an oil business. Ozene Dean showed up one night, with a shopping cart full of scrap that he had picked from the street and out of dumpsters, asking if he could sleep in the barn. My old man, being not far from the position that Ozene was in, let him sleep there. And it continued, Ozene was dirty and unwashed, he literally had maggots in his beard from his 'dumpster diving'. This is not 'rumor', I saw it.


I saw Ozene going out daily, picking up scrap. He would return with his shopping cart. Items that he could repair, he fixed and sold at flea markets. Things that were not repairable, he sorted and sold as scrap metal. He saved his pennies, until he was able to buy a small truck. With the truck, he was able to increase the amount of items he was able to scavenge and sell either as repaired or scrap. I watched Ozene build himself up from, literally, nothing. The last time I saw Ozene Dean, he was driving a brand-new Lincoln Continental, for which he paid cash by dint of his hard work and desire.


For everyone clamoring about a 'living wage', all I have is a hearty 'merry xmas'...no, wait, those aren't the words I want, I have two other words in mind...The opportunity is here, you just have to go out and take it. No one 'owes' you anything. **** and/or GTFO...maybe you could go to Russia and live with Putin?
Cool story bro, but I think you missed the point that Dane was making.
The point is that people on this thread, and it would appear employers in general, are complaining that they cannot find anyone willing to take their wages. In the capitalistic society we all claim to want to live in, the only option is for said employer to increase the wages offered in order to attract the desired talent. If the number that attracts potential workers is $60 per hour, well then the market has spoken. All the wailing about whether people "deserve" that rate is completely irrelevant. It's not the workers complaining right now, and if they were to complain about wages being too low, the answer they will receive is to either improve their skill sets or quit whining. The shoes on the other foot now. So if employers are complaining about not being able to find workers then they can either improve their wages being offered or, quit whining.
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Old 03-13-2022, 06:52 PM
 
808 posts, read 540,532 times
Reputation: 2291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northrick View Post
Why does everything have to be open all the time? Do you like working late at night and Sundays? Why as a consumer can't you make sure you get your shopping done by 7pm on a weekday? Sure, you might have to plan ahead a bit but it can be done.

And how many kids do you have to pick up after work, and then get the shopping done by 7?


I don't know anything about you, but I've heard this comment more than once from others, ALL of whom were single males with no one to take care of but themselves.
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Old 03-13-2022, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
7,058 posts, read 9,076,556 times
Reputation: 15634
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMom View Post
People will come back and say that these jobs were never meant to be "career" jobs anyway.

Well, they weren't.


If I own a bar, and I need my floors swept, I can only afford a certain amount of money to pay for someone to do it. If you don't want to do the job for what I can afford to pay, then I do it myself and you can go FYS.


#MakeYourDealAndLiveWithIt
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Old 03-13-2022, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
3,834 posts, read 4,439,529 times
Reputation: 6120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zymer View Post
Well, they weren't.


If I own a bar, and I need my floors swept, I can only afford a certain amount of money to pay for someone to do it. If you don't want to do the job for what I can afford to pay, then I do it myself and you can go FYS.


#MakeYourDealAndLiveWithIt
And that's how it should be. The problem is that the bar owner is now bitchin and whining about how no one will take his pay to sweep his floors.

Seems like the bar owner should take his own advice.
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Old 03-13-2022, 07:53 PM
 
26,639 posts, read 36,701,628 times
Reputation: 29906
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
In my area the labor shortage is so bad that it is affecting operational sustainability.

Where I work we used to get 100-200 apps for ONE position. Now we struggle to get 10, many postings get less than 6 when they're open for a month+ and half are not qualified.

The businesses in my area cannot stay open, the managers & owners are basically doing everything. Some retailers, e.g. the Walgreens near me, simply said they are no longer open evenings or weekends. 8:30-5:30 M-F: it's the manager, one worker and one pharmacist running the whole store.

It appears to be a problem in all sectors but somewhat less acute in IT.

We are now 6+ months out from the "free money" spigots being turned off. Where the hell did everyone go?
I can never tell from your posts whether you're MAGA or a diehard Bernie-style "Democratic socialist." Not much difference in many ways, though.

What can possibly be healthy about a society where 100-200 apps for every job is the norm? I'm saying this as an employer. During the Great Recession, which you seem to be looking back on with fondness, I used to feel terrible about having to turn so many people down who really needed the work.

Anyway, the second post here answered your question quite well.
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Old 03-13-2022, 08:08 PM
 
26,639 posts, read 36,701,628 times
Reputation: 29906
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Because I work during the day? Am I supposed to quit MY job so I can go the store?
.
No need to quit your job; I'm sure you can go to these retailers on your days off.
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Old 03-13-2022, 08:13 PM
 
26,639 posts, read 36,701,628 times
Reputation: 29906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zymer View Post
Ridiculous. You can't just go and demand whatever wage you think you 'deserve' and expect it to be granted, and if it isn't then blame the 'business model'. It doesn't, and shouldn't, work that way. You want to go in and demand $50/hr to flip burgers? Sorry, no job for you. A wage is a bargain negotiated between the one who wants to hire and the one who wants to work, if the two can't agree on the price then each looks for a different position/candidate.






Also ridiculous. It's not a 'willingness to be abused', it's a willingness to work hard to get what I wanted.


I'll tell you a little story. After I left the Army in the '80s....
Here's my little story; similar time frame: I got an average job after high school and moved out of my parents' home into a cute little house that cost about 1/4 of my paycheck.
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Old 03-13-2022, 08:29 PM
 
46,944 posts, read 25,972,151 times
Reputation: 29439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zymer View Post
Ridiculous. You can't just go and demand whatever wage you think you 'deserve' and expect it to be granted...
You can not take the job. Which is what brought the discussion on.
Quote:
...and if it isn't then blame the 'business model'.
No blame attaches. But if people don't want to work at the offered rate, and the product becomes too expensive to sell if you offer rates that attract workers, then yes - the business model is not viable.

Quote:
You want to go in and demand $50/hr to flip burgers? Sorry, no job for you.
Adversely, you want to pay your burger flippers $8.25? No employees for you.

Quote:
I ended up working at a car wash for $2.25/hr, it was less than min wage but they got away with it because they claimed we were 'tipped' employees. In reality, only the girls in bikinis toweling off the cars as they came out of the wash got any tips. I and the other guys doing the vacuuming and whitewall cleaning (the hard work) did not get tips.

My paycheck just barely covered my rent and utilities, with nothing left for food. Whether or not I ate on any particular day, and what, depended on how much loose change got sucked into the vacuum cleaners that I emptied at the end of the day.
What you describe is abusive. Good on you for surviving, but that's no justification for being indifferent to others suffering.

Quote:
I don't want to hear jack squat about meek little kitty cats (can I say '*******' here?) whining about a 'living wage'. If you don't like what you've got, then do something to change it...
People are. For one thing, they're flipping the bird at the McJobs, hence this thread. Starbucks baristas are unionizing. Heck, Amazon workers are unionizing. Back in my old country, when the workers first formed strong trade unions, the motto was "Do your duty, but demand your rights." That has survived and a McDonalds employee in Copenhagen makes $22/hr, while selling the Big Mac at the price you pay in the US.

Quote:
For everyone clamoring about a 'living wage', all I have is a hearty 'merry xmas'...no, wait, those aren't the words I want, I have two other words in mind...The opportunity is here, you just have to go out and take it. No one 'owes' you anything. **** and/or GTFO...maybe you could go to Russia and live with Putin?
That was random.

I'm genuinely happy for you that you overcame adversity - no one should have had to go through that.
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Old 03-13-2022, 08:33 PM
 
46,944 posts, read 25,972,151 times
Reputation: 29439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zymer View Post
If I own a bar, and I need my floors swept, I can only afford a certain amount of money to pay for someone to do it. If you don't want to do the job for what I can afford to pay, then I do it myself and you can go FYS.
You make a point, although perhaps unintentionally. Swept floors are critical to the operation of the bar. If the bar revenue can't pay for the manhours needed at the rate the local sweepers charge, then the bar isn't a viable business. You can't press-gang cleaners.
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Old 03-13-2022, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
7,058 posts, read 9,076,556 times
Reputation: 15634
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
Cool story bro, but I think you missed the point that Dane was making.
The point is that people on this thread, and it would appear employers in general, are complaining that they cannot find anyone willing to take their wages. In the capitalistic society we all claim to want to live in, the only option is for said employer to increase the wages offered in order to attract the desired talent. If the number that attracts potential workers is $60 per hour, well then the market has spoken. All the wailing about whether people "deserve" that rate is completely irrelevant. It's not the workers complaining right now, and if they were to complain about wages being too low, the answer they will receive is to either improve their skill sets or quit whining. The shoes on the other foot now. So if employers are complaining about not being able to find workers then they can either improve their wages being offered or, quit whining.

Nah, I didn't miss any points. Apparently, you are not capable of comprehending the totality of the situation.
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