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Old 05-03-2022, 09:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1200RT View Post
Aside from someone who actually served in GWOT (or, god forbid lost someone on 9/11 or aftermath), what impact does this have vs. similar generations challenges? Be specific.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sO7e1vOJ6f...eisenhower.jpg

It should be pretty obvious, no? Opportunity cost and crowd out spending. Perhaps instead of spending multiple trillion overseas, being baited exactly as osama bin laden wanted (we raise a flag and you spend $1 mm to chase it, he said he’d bankrupt us like the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and force global withdrawal—which is why he went after the symbols of global power economically, military, and a miss on the capital building political)

It could have been spend on modern 21st century infrastructure or creating alternative renewable energy. Do you think it’s a coincidence that the 2008 recession was so bad?

The obvious answer is this government spending could have went towards research, development, and actual value producing activity that could provide stakeholders jobs and wealth. A trillion or five adds up.
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Old 05-03-2022, 09:36 AM
 
5,907 posts, read 4,428,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I don't have numbers at hand but I'd bet as a percentage of GDP Vietnam cost more than Iraq and Afghanistan combined and probably by a lot.......I'll try to find some numbers later.


Anyway, my point was about the 58,000+ KiA and ~160,000 wounded vs. an ear population of ~207,000,000. Proportionally, heck even nominally, your generation has faced nothing similar.

Post 911 across Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Pakistan we've lost roughly 7,100 KIA with roughly 16,000 wounded vs. a current era population of ~330,000,000.


Proportionally Vietnam, from a US casualty perspective, was roughly 10X worse.

__________________


I promise I'm not bashing you but younger people, even those who claim solid knowledge of history, often seem to lack much sense of proportionality per this and related topics.
Do covid deaths count to you? A million in 2 years. That’s 3 times the u.s deaths of ww2 in half the time.

It was described as a war time economy no? Private industry harnessed to produce masks and other supplies. The u.s navy sent ships to New York and La.

And in terms of cost, Vietnam had a flashpoint of cost as involvement spiked you would compare to a years gdp because it was “shorter” but Iraq and Afghanistan were slow burns of cost over many years of gdp. However, their cost in total in the case of Vietnam or Iraq and Afghanistan were extremely costly.

And a problem with this history lecture, is that if you zoom the camera out a tad, you could “downplay” Vietnam in cost of lives and finances. I won’t do that, but that’s pretty much what you just did, and the same thing could be done to “diminish” Vietnam within just a generation.

Last edited by Thatsright19; 05-03-2022 at 09:59 AM..
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Old 05-03-2022, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Florida
14,968 posts, read 9,797,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoAmericaGo View Post
Inflation is making cash worthless.

The stock market doesn’t seem like a safe retreat anymore.

Cars are wildly expensive and almost hard to get.

Homes…if you haven’t already bought one that ship has sailed.

Food prices are up…along with everything else.

When I think back over my life, it seems like people of my generation have been brutally clobbered.

Coming out of high school 2004+ and onward there was a huge push for everyone to go to college. I had a lot of friends take on massive debt for their education. Then the meltdown in 2008/2009 happened and these same people with degrees couldn’t even find jobs paying much over minimum wage. Fast forward less than a decade and now we are in the environment we have now.

Seems like a lot of people under 45 might be working until death. Perhaps retirement will be reserved for the top 10%.
You forgot... the sky is falling.
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Old 05-03-2022, 09:38 AM
 
Location: equator
11,046 posts, read 6,635,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roodd279 View Post
I am not certain the cost of housing has gone up (relative to other things) - but I am 100% certain that the expectations of 1st time home-buyers has gone up. Look around - at "older" folks - who are still living in the house they bought in 1980. Is it huge? No.


Did they (at some point - even though they made more money, found success, etc...) - move to a bigger home? Mainly, no.

This ain't the way ANY generation EVER did it, until right now. And yet - later on - there will be much whining about how unfair it is that they can't retire when they're 48.
I'm sorry - I want to be more sympathetic - but I see so many stupid money decisions on a daily basis - it's hard to actually locate the legitimate "bad luck" case.
I feel "certain" the relative price of housing has gone up, BUT, I do agree with you about expectations. I often think of my father (WW2 vet) who built his "dream" home in '67. He was affluent, but built a 1,700 sq. ft. Cape Cod (in SoCal, lol) with 3 teensy bedrooms, no en-suite for the master---just a bathroom in the hall so tiny you could barely turn around that functioned as the guest powder room. The master opened onto the utility room so anyone coming in that door looked right into the "master".

This layout would never fly in today's (or even 20 years ago) market. My nieces and nephews mostly purchased much larger, McMansion-type homes whether they could afford them or not. Even as a Boomer, I would not want my parents' home, but it was fine for them. We built a 3,000 sq. ft. home in 1990 because we were sure if we ever went to sell, it had to be that "fine".

There's no simple answer....
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Old 05-03-2022, 09:59 AM
 
24,508 posts, read 10,825,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoAmericaGo View Post
I made it just fine so no crying from me. However, looking at things on a macro level — I see a lot of hurdles that people around my age have had to clear. If things go even further south soon it will be yet another hurdle. I say this as I watch what looks to be the stock market imploding.
Do you think we did not have to deal with hurdles 20 years ago?
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Old 05-03-2022, 10:04 AM
 
4,940 posts, read 3,047,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky3vicky View Post
GoAmerica, I agree that the milenialls have had-and still have- more obstacles in their lives than any generation in modern history. I do not, by any stretch, find the situation even remotely hopeless.

I am a Boomer, and when I was young many of my generation, including myself,
moved out of our parents homes into crappy apartments or rundown rented homes. We didn't have much money and that was alright. We threw mattresses in our studio apartments that served both as beds and our sofa for entertaining, made our bookcases out of old cinder blocks and decorated our doorways with streamers from soda and beer pull tabs. We had little but that was okay because we considered it all an adventure that was temporary.

The idea was that we would do without a bit but we would soon be getting our degrees or moving up to better pay in our jobs and within a fairly short period of time be able to afford to buy our home. That's how it worked for most of our generation. We may not have splurged on avocado toast but "getting ahead" for most of us was a fairly consis
tent and attainable goal.

It wasn't for me. This was 50 years ago and I, no matter how I tried, could not get ahead. I worked minmum wage jobs, and I put money away when I had it. But I really can not remember how many times my boss would sit me down and say "Vicky, you work so hard. You are never late for work. You never complain. People always comment on your beautiful smile, but when things get busy you fall apart and go sit in a corner and cry. I'm sorry but we can't keep you working here." [and there were a few who would let me know that it was because I wouldn't sleep with them]And I would feel like a total loser. I was lucky enough to be considered quite physically attractive so I was always working again within a week, but during those many work interruptions I would be forced to use up the money I had saved to keep paying my rent.

It was decades later that I figured out the reason I was so awkward, so self-conscious, so anxiety ridden, and just so flippin weird is because I am Autistic. But WAAAAY before I discovered why I was so different I became accutely aware that I had serious obstacles that could prevent me from my dreams [having and providing for happy, uber-loved children] if I didn't find alternate solutions.

During this period of time there were many refugees from the Vietnam war coming over. They would work in the back of restaurants washing dishes and doing prep work. After their work shift they would clean up in the restaurant restroom and go on to their next jobs.

It was so difficult for me to make friends, but I knew several of them and they accepted me. They also liked that I would help them learn english. And I learned about their 3 year plans which were find a job, then a second job. Move into a house with up to 20 different people. None of them had cars and they only came home to sleep. Their rent was maybe $10 a person a month. They would eat for free at work. And by the third-occassionally the fourth year they would own their own Asian restaurants [and they ussually slept in the back of their restaurants and allowed some of their employees as well and they would be succesful in a very short period of time.

I decided to duplicate the essence of what they were doing. I found a job bussing tables for 25 to 30 hours a week in Boulder Colorado. Then I approached several of the fraternities. I was way too shy to actually engage in conversation so I wrote letters to the fraternities offering to do some cooking, cleaning, dating, in exchange for food and a corner in a room I could sleep in. I fixed up my hair, wore a tight sweater and a mini skirt, put on too much makeup and delivered the letters in person. I was living in a frat house that very night.

I have always been a good cook and they were happy with that and kept the house somewhat clean. Some of the guys would pay me for helping them study, ironing their shirts, going on "fake dates" with guys who were trying to make a girl they liked jealous and so many other things. I saved every penny from my regular job and at least half of the money from the frat house guys.

I was invited to return after summer break so I just kept working wherever I was at the time and had no problem finding places to crash in Boulder [this was Boulder in the early seventies, pure hippie town so life was easy]

In the latter half of the second year I had built a significant stash of cash so I decided to look for the man who had the genetics I wanted for my future children and work to fall in love with him. I found the guy, worked to fall in love with him and I got pregnant on my honeymoon.

He worked hard and was a good man but developed some severe addictions to alcohol and gambling. I started baking cookies and little cakes and tarts before going to work every day. After work my kids would go with me as I brought plates of cookies to my neighbors along with a litle note telling them to call with orders. I was inundated with orders. I handed my paycheck to my husband every week and I HATE that I did this but I hid the money from my baking because Larry would have gambled it away and the bills would not otherwise be paid and my kids would be going without if I hadn't.

When larry was diagnosed with leukemia I did whatever I needed to to not only pay the bills but to pay to have costly medications illegal in the united states that were supposedly a cure. [They weren't. He still died]

When he diedI I had $87 in the bank. I found other reative ways to care for my family.

I guess what I am trying to say is if the traditional ways to meet your dreams are not going to be effective think of other ways. I guess it's called thinking out of the box. I've never had to find my way out of the box because I have never been in it, never seen it, and have no interest in finding it...unless there are cookies in the box...are there cookies in the box?

This is an amazing post, thank you.
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Old 05-03-2022, 11:35 AM
 
19,777 posts, read 18,064,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19 View Post
Do covid deaths count to you? A million in 2 years. That’s 3 times the u.s deaths of ww2 in half the time.

It was described as a war time economy no? Private industry harnessed to produce masks and other supplies. The u.s navy sent ships to New York and La.

And in terms of cost, Vietnam had a flashpoint of cost as involvement spiked you would compare to a years gdp because it was “shorter” but Iraq and Afghanistan were slow burns of cost over many years of gdp. However, their cost in total in the case of Vietnam or Iraq and Afghanistan were extremely costly.

And a problem with this history lecture, is that if you zoom the camera out a tad, you could “downplay” Vietnam in cost of lives and finances. I won’t do that, but that’s pretty much what you just did, and the same thing could be done to “diminish” Vietnam within just a generation.

Of course covid and covid deaths count but covid wiped out The Silent and Boomers disproportionally.

Flashpoint of costs? From Ike, JFK and especially Johnson through Nixon.........'62/'63-March of 1973 were all heavy involvement years. I'm pulling this from memory so give me a little leeway.......we had about 1,000 troops/advisors there in 1959, more than 10,000 by '62 more than 10,000 for 10 years and more than 100,000 for 7 or 8. With more than 350,000 for several years. I recall the high in '68 was over 500,000. Our first KIA died in 1959 the last, I think it was two or three KIA the same day, in 1975. ~2,700,000 men served.

All of that is from memory so I might be off here and there.....I'll scan a source or two and fix any gross errors.

My dad and his brother were both Air Force Reserve call up pilots in the '65, '66, '67 ish era. So I've always been interested.
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Old 05-03-2022, 11:40 AM
 
1,586 posts, read 1,128,314 times
Reputation: 5169
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoAmericaGo View Post
Inflation is making cash worthless.

The stock market doesn’t seem like a safe retreat anymore.

Cars are wildly expensive and almost hard to get.

Homes…if you haven’t already bought one that ship has sailed.

Food prices are up…along with everything else.

When I think back over my life, it seems like people of my generation have been brutally clobbered.

Coming out of high school 2004+ and onward there was a huge push for everyone to go to college. I had a lot of friends take on massive debt for their education. Then the meltdown in 2008/2009 happened and these same people with degrees couldn’t even find jobs paying much over minimum wage. Fast forward less than a decade and now we are in the environment we have now.

Seems like a lot of people under 45 might be working until death. Perhaps retirement will be reserved for the top 10%.
I don't buy it. I know plenty of people in your generation that are doing fine. Both college grads and those that went into the trades. Own homes, have jobs, and start families. It's setting real priorities and expectations. Not always buying the latest phone, or eating out multiple times a week, or filling the house with expensive furniture or needing a 2500 sq ft house. Nothing wrong with a 1300 sq ft house. Many young people I see will buy a house and immediately buy newer furniture to fill it out. Doubling down on their lack of funds. Previous generations just dealt with hand-me-down furniture until in later years they could afford it.

In the past many graduated high school and were immediately drafted. Never stood a chance at reaching their dreams. Inflation in the late 70's was nearly 20%! Cars lasted 6 years if you were lucky. Now a Corolla will last 20 years. Thats a long time without a car payment. Heart attack or cancer and you were more likely to die in previous generations. Access to a career change? good luck with that back then. If you were uneducated you were likely to stay that way. These days thanks to the internet you know what you are getting into before even applying for a job, and have the opportunity to learn something new every day. Career change is considerably easier now. Mobility is easier now. Opportunity is considerably easier now.

So I disagree... we have infact come a long way for the better.

Last edited by 2Loud; 05-03-2022 at 11:49 AM..
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Old 05-03-2022, 12:38 PM
 
5,907 posts, read 4,428,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Of course covid and covid deaths count but covid wiped out The Silent and Boomers disproportionally.

Flashpoint of costs? From Ike, JFK and especially Johnson through Nixon.........'62/'63-March of 1973 were all heavy involvement years. I'm pulling this from memory so give me a little leeway.......we had about 1,000 troops/advisors there in 1959, more than 10,000 by '62 more than 10,000 for 10 years and more than 100,000 for 7 or 8. With more than 350,000 for several years. I recall the high in '68 was over 500,000. Our first KIA died in 1959 the last, I think it was two or three KIA the same day, in 1975. ~2,700,000 men served.

All of that is from memory so I might be off here and there.....I'll scan a source or two and fix any gross errors.

My dad and his brother were both Air Force Reserve call up pilots in the '65, '66, '67 ish era. So I've always been interested.
All that I mean by a spike was in 1964, there were 16,000 troops and in 1969 it was over 500k. The war dragged for a long time. That’s all I meant by a flashpoint of cost. So in 1969, the war in financial terms was probably more costly than in 1962 or 1963, for example.
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Old 05-03-2022, 02:00 PM
 
4,295 posts, read 2,763,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
The cost of housing and the cost of education relative to wages are the things screwing over young people pretty badly.

Everything else is a rearrangement of problems every generation goes through. The Millennials did have a setback graduating into the recession but if they'e anything like me they caught up. I do envy Zs a bit though with the plethora of $20 an hour jobs out there. When I was young I remember the competition for ANY job being fierce.

But education is legitimately overpriced and it's still a requirement for many many jobs even though it's really not that relevant in most cases.

Housing is also absurdly expensive in most metros with decent jobs. Its at crisis level in places like Miami.
Exactly. A nurse, teacher or rookie cop would not be able to buy a home in my county unless they were a two-income family.

So it is not just "lazy" people or those who don't bother to get an education that are struggling. Everyone knows real estate costs have risen far faster than wages.
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