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Old 05-26-2022, 08:20 AM
 
24,775 posts, read 11,121,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
Education is entirely different from project management work or data analysis. What works for one is not going to work for the other, people can't extrapolate from one field and say all the fields are feeing the same thing.

Companies can want whatever they want, but workers have made it pretty clear if they are expected to go into the office, that better come with a big pay bump or incentives, otherwise they're gonna take the work from home alternative job.
On a certain level and a certain audience it is not much different.
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Old 05-26-2022, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,075 posts, read 7,278,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
Education is entirely different from project management work or data analysis. What works for one is not going to work for the other, people can't extrapolate from one field and say all the fields are feeing the same thing.

Companies can want whatever they want, but workers have made it pretty clear if they are expected to go into the office, that better come with a big pay bump or incentives, otherwise they're gonna take the work from home alternative job.
And where did you learn how to do project management or data analysis?

You take for granted that you got a proper education in person. You were PREPARED to work from home because of your prior training & experience. You previously learned how to work. You did not come of age into this without ever having that preparation.
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Old 05-26-2022, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,075 posts, read 7,278,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threestep2 View Post
SO is in adult ed. He has not had an issue with students or instructors slacking off.

Those WFH who really work and not just slide along do have their set up and are professional enough to check their home life at the door.
Key word: adults. People who got proper school. People who are motivated to be there & well off enough to pay for education. So they probably have those home set-ups that facilitate things.

And pray tell, where and how did they learn how to be professionals? I bet NOT at home.
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Old 05-26-2022, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Taos NM
5,373 posts, read 5,175,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
And where did you learn how to do project management or data analysis?

You take for granted that you got a proper education in person. You were PREPARED to work from home because of your prior training & experience. You previously learned how to work. You did not come of age into this without ever having that preparation.
I'm not arguing that school should be remote, I think there's value to in person learning for conceptual topics.

You can do how to job specific learning remotely though. I learned how to do my data work by being self taught or webex. I could start a new job remotely and do fine, as long as people were willing to share virtual time just as they share in person time.

Literally the only difference between a webex and walking over to someones cube is that it's easier to distract them when you walk over. The experience is the same, they talk and share visuals and you both interact.

The case is pretty settled on this, jobs that could be done effectively remotely are just as effectively done remotely.

Virtualization is not the problem, it's supply chain, staffing issues, and worker incentive.
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Old 05-26-2022, 12:08 PM
 
24,775 posts, read 11,121,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Key word: adults. People who got proper school. People who are motivated to be there & well off enough to pay for education. So they probably have those home set-ups that facilitate things.

And pray tell, where and how did they learn how to be professionals? I bet NOT at home.
There is an audience in adult Ed which is past HS:>)
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Old 05-26-2022, 12:29 PM
 
700 posts, read 450,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
I'm not arguing that school should be remote, I think there's value to in person learning for conceptual topics.

You can do how to job specific learning remotely though. I learned how to do my data work by being self taught or webex. I could start a new job remotely and do fine, as long as people were willing to share virtual time just as they share in person time.

Literally the only difference between a webex and walking over to someones cube is that it's easier to distract them when you walk over. The experience is the same, they talk and share visuals and you both interact.

The case is pretty settled on this, jobs that could be done effectively remotely are just as effectively done remotely.

Virtualization is not the problem, it's supply chain, staffing issues, and worker incentive.
You cannot make accurate generalizations like these that apply to all sorts of jobs.
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Old 05-26-2022, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,075 posts, read 7,278,437 times
Reputation: 17151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
I'm not arguing that school should be remote, I think there's value to in person learning for conceptual topics.

You can do how to job specific learning remotely though. I learned how to do my data work by being self taught or webex. I could start a new job remotely and do fine, as long as people were willing to share virtual time just as they share in person time.

Literally the only difference between a webex and walking over to someones cube is that it's easier to distract them when you walk over. The experience is the same, they talk and share visuals and you both interact.

The case is pretty settled on this, jobs that could be done effectively remotely are just as effectively done remotely.

Virtualization is not the problem, it's supply chain, staffing issues, and worker incentive.
No I don't think the case is settled. To argue that makes some bold assumptions about peoples' home lives. It also assumes things about the other person you interface with. E.g. I don't connect well over Zoom, but I do in-person. I need to see the non-verbal cues.

What I deal with is people not doing their work when they switch to remote. They do half-assed jobs or don't really do it at all. In large part because it is NOT work meant to be done online. There has to be socialization to do it.

Yes if all the job involves is doing work over a laptop and socialization is not important, then really all you need is a laptop and a workspace, which can be anywhere with an internet connection. Anything that involves PEOPLE needs to be in person, since this is not the way humans are evolved to operate. In fact if jobs can be done that way I would speculate they can be automated by software & we don't need the human.
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Old 05-27-2022, 09:21 AM
 
8,054 posts, read 3,967,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
Moguldreamer;

Based on some of your posts you REALLY NEED to read ALL my post...

You are COMPLETELY out of touch with the 71% of the entire US work force employees who work SERVICE Jobs (according to 2017 Pew Research study).

READ it thoroughly, AMD AND digest it's contents. MAYBE you'll learn something!
OK, I read it thoroughly as you requested.


*************

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
This.

In the 60s the business mantra was "you can be replaced by a machine"
In the 70s the matra was "you can replaced by a robot"
In the 80s it was "you can be replaced by a computer"
The number of jobs in the US expanded in the 1960s, as did US GDP and GDP per capita. Ditto for the 1970s & 1980s. And Ditto for the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
In the late 70s and early 80s the news reported frequently that "manufacturing will be shifted offshore due to cheaper labor producing better products" And they continued that
" manufacturing jobs are going completely away in the US".
The Federal Government wanted manufacturing jobs to go offshore. Manufacturing is frequently dirty, dangerous, and involves toxic materials. Google "Superfund Sites"; THATs why the Federal Government chased manufacturing off-shore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post

What the news DIDN'T tell in the above news reports was that these "service jobs" would all be absolutely minimum wage jobs, no benefits, no raises.
Incorrect, of course. None of the following service jobs are low value-add and hence minimum wage/no benefits/no raises:
  • Cybersecurity Consultant
  • Webmaster
  • Computer Network Architect
  • Computer Network Engineer
  • Genetics Counselor
  • Real Estate Agent
  • Estate Planning Attorney
  • CPA
  • Patent Examiner
  • Home Automation installer
  • Data Scientist
  • Software Engineer
  • Financial Analyst
  • Product Manager
  • Sales Engineer
  • Applications Support Engineer
  • Cost Accountant
  • Tax Accountant
  • Tax Attorney
  • Patent Attorney
  • Investment Manager
  • Trust Officer
  • Nurse Practitioner
  • Nutritionist
  • Kidney Dialysis Technician
  • RN
  • Supply Chain Manager
  • Marketing Manager
  • Communications/Public Relations Officer
  • Database Administrator
  • CPU Architect
  • Clinical Laboratory Tech
  • Actuarial Scientist
  • Chiropractor
  • Pilot
  • Site Selection Consultant
  • Etc.

I could go on and on for hundreds of pages, but I hope you get the idea. And that's just in the PRIVATE sector.


Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post

When I started working after graduation it was 1981.
I entered the workforce full time in 1980.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
Full time work was plenty available, and I was "valued" because I was willing to work overtime and extra shifts, and was rewarded with pay raises.
I always worked a minimum of 60 hrs/week, and frequently over 80 hrs/week. There was no "overtime" as I was an exempt employee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
By the late 80s, I was over 3x minimum wage
By the late 80s, I was making about $150K/year. I was generating at least 10x that in incremental revenue for my employer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
I also cooked in a 4 star restaurant at night because I wanted extra $ for vacations, savings boys toys, etc.
I never had time for a 2nd job; my regular job also consumed nights and weekends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
I had 3 weeks paid vacation as I hit 5 years... I even had a week paid vacation the very first year of employment there at the store. I had 6 paid sick days a year, and 6 personal paid days. All holiday work was time and a half, AND I got an extra 100% paid holiday floating if I worked on a holiday. I think it was 12 paid holidays a year, only TV and Xmas were guaranteed off, all others could be floaters.
Wow. You sure got a lot of time off. I never took vacation; I worked. If I was sick, I worked from home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post

1990 hit, the restaurant let me go...permenantly ... I left the area and moved "back home" where all jobs..even with my experience were bare minimum wage...no benefits.
I moved halfway across the country for my career - several times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
Spouse will have 10 years at the store spouse works at next month...
Spouse makes the star minimum wage, STILL...
It certainly begs the question why you & your spouse moved "back home" instead of to a place where you could make more money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
A while ago news announcement that "many employers are going to a 24/7 'On Call' schedule for all employees".
I've always been a 24/7 employee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
Here's another thought... Minimum wage in the early 80's was $3 .35/hr federal. Today, and since, what 2008, federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr, just barely twice what it was 40 years ago.
Do you really think COSTS have only doubled in those 40 years?
What matters is how much profit you can generate for your employer (or for yourself if you are self-employed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
The CEO of McDonald's made $18million in 2019.
That's a bargain. McDonalds Corporation is largely owned by public sector union pension plans and private sector retirement plans, and those pension plans depend on McDonalds to generate large profits so the pensions can pay retirees. That's why CEOs - very insecure jobs with tremendous responsibilities -frequently lose their jobs for failure-to-perform and why great CEOs are paid handsomely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
In what city does one NEED to make $18 million/yr to "scrape by"???
What does that have to do with anything???

Quote:
Originally Posted by galaxyhi View Post
A NY Times article years ago proved McDonald's DOESN'T have to raise the hamburger price even with pay increases.
Such articles are typically written by journalists, not by cost accountants or financial analysists with access to actual inside corporate data.

****

You and I entered the workforce approximately the same time. You chose one path, I chose another. I responded to economic stimuli and changed careers and geographic locations many times, each as a stepping stone to financial independence, which I achieved.

You, on the other hand... well, many times over the past 40 years you might have decided to change your career, change your geographic location, start a business (instead of buy "toys & vacations" in your own words), acquire different skills, and you didn't. You could have figured out how to make a ton of money to achieve financial independence.

You didn't do so. I presume you have a reason you decided to stay on the path of low value add employee in a location without significant economic opportunities for you to seize - but it was your choice to make, and you made it.
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Old 05-27-2022, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Taos NM
5,373 posts, read 5,175,199 times
Reputation: 6823
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
No I don't think the case is settled. To argue that makes some bold assumptions about peoples' home lives. It also assumes things about the other person you interface with. E.g. I don't connect well over Zoom, but I do in-person. I need to see the non-verbal cues.

What I deal with is people not doing their work when they switch to remote. They do half-assed jobs or don't really do it at all. In large part because it is NOT work meant to be done online. There has to be socialization to do it.

Yes if all the job involves is doing work over a laptop and socialization is not important, then really all you need is a laptop and a workspace, which can be anywhere with an internet connection. Anything that involves PEOPLE needs to be in person, since this is not the way humans are evolved to operate. In fact if jobs can be done that way I would speculate they can be automated by software & we don't need the human.
Right, Pastor via the internet is not the same experience as one in person. Only a fraction of jobs can be virtualized, but that's a big fraction! Basically anything that was a cube farm is what you were describing, a laptop and a workspace. Think how many cube farms there are across the US!

Basically, if virtualization was the problem, that should have shown up in a productivity hit in 2021, earlier than this last quarter. Forced virtualization is done now, covid is over essentially, there's a good number of jobs (like school) that are now back in person.

What has changed between 2021 and now is rampant inflation eroding wages coupled with a still hot job market. Since that's the recent change, THAT seems to be the cause of what's going on now, not old news of WFH.
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Old 05-27-2022, 10:23 AM
 
5,909 posts, read 4,453,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
And where did you learn how to do project management or data analysis?

You take for granted that you got a proper education in person. You were PREPARED to work from home because of your prior training & experience. You previously learned how to work. You did not come of age into this without ever having that preparation.
I agree with that 100%.

I’m the most die hard WFH person there is to the point I will quit and leave without full flexibility. The nature of my job is global anyways so much of my job is “remote” even if I’m in the office. I also have to take late night and early morning calls all the time so I’m not wasting time going to an office only to work remotely anyways.

However, we have new staff we are on boarding, and I acknowledge that working from home is a near impossible steep climb for them and I would have never developed properly if my first 3-5 years weren’t in person. I’ve went in for their benefit and I made it known how bad WFH is for them.


And in college, I started terrified of people and by the end you work with dozens of teams in person and speak/present to the point you just got over it someday for prep for the workforce. Without this, I don’t know how you’d develop interpersonally.
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