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Old 03-24-2023, 02:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Over the past 60 years, real hourly wages for production and nonsupervisory workers increased by around 19% (adjusted for inflation) from 1964 to 2020, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). That is labor's share of productivity increases.

You personally work in education

Food inflation was 12% last year, making wage NON-increase just that.
The banking system is rigged for 1%ers, and everyone knows this.
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Old 03-24-2023, 02:47 PM
 
Location: PNW
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I don't want to argue; but, I'm right.
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Old 03-25-2023, 07:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Over the past 60 years, real hourly wages for production and nonsupervisory workers increased by around 19% (adjusted for inflation) from 1964 to 2020, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). That is labor's share of productivity increases.


Education suffers from Baumol's cost disease. No technology we apply makes human brains work faster. There's no way to increase productivity in that sense. We can't increase the speed of production because the human brain learns at a speed set by evolution.
It isn't about the speed of the human brain, of course.

It is about how many students can the educator educate. It is about how many non-educational employees are on the payroll of the university. It is about unfunded mandates from all manner of legislative and regulatory bodies at the municipal, state, and federal level that the university must comply with.

In short, it is about bureaucratic excess. And the more bureaucrats in supervisory positions, the more "work" they create for everyone else. Administrators begat more administrators who begat more administrators.

And then, as surely as dawn follows dusk, comes the bleating "we're underfunded... we need more money ... its for the children..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Rather, technology inputs only increase the costs while production rate is the same. If all we still used were chalkboards we could deliver it cheaper.
That's called bad fiscal management. Universities suffer from it as much as do private sector entities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Baumol looked at the cost of playing a piece of music. If you are going to play Beethoven's 9th, there's no way to improve that production process. It takes 70 minutes. Period. The cost of the musicians goes up over time. Technology inputs can improve the sound quality but it adds to your cost.
Baumol was a hack whose observations are excuses. 70 minutes has nothing to do with it. What IS important, in measuring productivity, is inputs and outputs, and more specifically how many can listen to the music - 20? 200? 200,000?


Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Last I checked only 40% of workers have 401ks, and most of them have relatively small balances.
You're measuring incorrectly. Your own future public-sector pension, assuming you will receive one, is in part funded by the performance of the stock market and the economy writ large, whether you realize it or not.
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Old 03-25-2023, 07:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
What has happened in education is the "raw materials" are harder to work with, so productivity has declined. US oil production declined in the 1980s through the 2010s because our supplies of extractable oil declined. You don't blame the roughnecks when the well runs dry, why blame teachers when more students are coming from single parent households, ESL households, and chaotic households?
True, of course - but that isn't the main cause.

It is bureaucratic and administrative overhead.

A “proliferation of administrators”: faculty reflect on two decades of rapid expansion

Quote:
Over the last two decades, the number of managerial and professional staff that Yale employs has risen three times faster than the undergraduate student body, according to University financial reports.
The number of Yale’s administrators today exceeds the number of faculty — 5,066 compared to 4,937.

Quote:
In 2003, when 5,307 undergraduate students studied on campus, the University employed 3,500 administrators and managers. In 2019, before the COVID-19 pandemic’s effects on student enrollment, only 600 more students were living and studying at Yale, yet the number of administrators had risen by more than 1,500 — a nearly 45 percent hike. In 2018, The Chronicle of Higher Education found that Yale had the highest manager-to-student ratio of any Ivy League university, and the fifth highest in the nation among four-year private colleges.
Yale's faculty complain that administration size imposes unnecessary costs, interferes with students’ lives and faculty’s teaching, spreads the burden of leadership and adds excessive regulation.

Quote:
“I had remarked to President Salovey on his inauguration that I thought the best thing he could do for Yale would be to abolish one deanship or vice presidency every year of what I hoped would be a long tenure in that position,” professor of English Leslie Brisman wrote in an email to the News. “Instead, it has seemed to me that he has created one upper level administrative position a month.”
According to a report from the American Council on Education, in 2013 and 2014 alone, the United States Department of Education added new rules and regulations on 10 new issue sets, including grants, loans and campus crimes. The report further details that, according to data from the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, “the number of federal requirements placed on colleges and universities grew by 56 percent between 1997 and 2012.”

And, of course, it isn't just regulatory requirements.

Paul Campos, a professor of law at the University of Colorado and an expert in the economics of higher education, says the main driver of fatter bureaucracies has been the desire of administrators to accumulate power and influence within their institutions.

Quote:
“One [cause] is the tremendous increase in revenue generated by these universities that more or less has to be spent,” Campos said. “This means that as revenues go up, there has to be found ways to spend them. And one of the most natural ways to increase spending is to increase administration, the size of it and the compensation of the top administrators in particular.”
and


Quote:
“Yale, like many other universities, clearly now wants to be known not only as a place for teaching, learning, and research, but also as a home, a community, an innovative corporate entity,” Professor of English David Bromwich wrote in an email to the Yale Daily News. “The swollen self-image requires expanded oversight, and administrators are the overseers.”
and

Professor of English Leslie Brisman wrote, “I think we don’t yet have a Vice President for the rights of the left-handed, but I haven’t checked this month...”

and

Quote:
Joel Rosenbaum, professor emeritus of molecular, cellular and developmental biology at the Yale School of Medicine, said that the increased size of the administration adds significant red tape. Rosenbaum said that whenever a faculty member wants to alter a course or a department wants to hire a new professor, there is now much more administration “to fight your way through.”
and

Quote:
Akhil Amar ’80 LAW ’84, Sterling Professor of law at Yale Law School, also described how the administrative infrastructure creates work for itself.

“My sense is [that] we have more staffers and bureaucrats than we actually need, and they generate all sorts of paperwork for the rest of us,” Amar said.
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Old 03-25-2023, 07:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbiz1 View Post
Food inflation was 12% last year, making wage NON-increase just that.
The banking system is rigged for 1%ers, and everyone knows this.
LOL! Do you also do stand-up?
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Old 03-26-2023, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
LOL! Do you also do stand-up?

Your borrowed wage and inflation numbers are inaccurate.
I shall now stand up, and enjoy the day.
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Old 03-26-2023, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
It isn't about the speed of the human brain, of course.

It is about how many students can the educator educate. It is about how many non-educational employees are on the payroll of the university. It is about unfunded mandates from all manner of legislative and regulatory bodies at the municipal, state, and federal level that the university must comply with.
We proved once and for all during Covid that the number of students one teacher can teach is limited. Delivery of information =/= teaching. If it did, we'd never have needed more technology input than the book. We've had books since the 5th century CE.

Quote:
In short, it is about bureaucratic excess. And the more bureaucrats in supervisory positions, the more "work" they create for everyone else. Administrators begat more administrators who begat more administrators.
I hate this as much as anyone else, but ironically much of this excess is government driven for the purposes of accountability. The state wants its money to be justified and demands 10 different reports per year that say the same thing. Have to hire people to do that. Other unfunded mandates include things like disability accomodations. Extremely inefficient and expensive.

Quote:
Baumol was a hack whose observations are excuses. 70 minutes has nothing to do with it. What IS important, in measuring productivity, is inputs and outputs, and more specifically how many can listen to the music - 20? 200? 200,000?
If you make the number too large it changes the experience into something different, something the composer did not intend. It was designed to be heard live for a certain audience size. Not recorded, not delivered in a stadium, etc... The venue change or technological inputs to get to 200k listeners changes it into something other than what it is.
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Old 03-26-2023, 11:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I hate this as much as anyone else, but ironically much of this excess is government driven for the purposes of accountability. The state wants its money to be justified and demands 10 different reports per year that say the same thing. Have to hire people to do that. Other unfunded mandates include things like disability accomodations. Extremely inefficient and expensive.
I agree. It indicates that one way to reduce the administrative burden at the university is to cut the headcount of the US Department of Education and at the various State level departments of education, and to ZBB all their requirements for paperwork. Fewer government employees means a lower demand for useless reports.

***

I also suspect it would help to separate instruction from examination, as in the Oxford model:


Quote:
Examinations
Most Oxford courses are assessed by examinations at the end of the first and last years. First year examinations are often called Prelims or Moderations, and you need to pass these exams to progress to the second year. You must pass your final year exams, or ‘finals’, to pass your degree.

Finals also determine the classification of your degree. For some courses you may also be assessed on your practical work, or you may be required to submit a dissertation. Please check the assessment details for your course.

Colleges may also set their own examinations, known as ‘collections’, at the start of each term. These exams are to check that you are progressing satisfactorily through the course. They do not count towards your final degree.
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/unde...0your%20degree.

Last edited by moguldreamer; 03-26-2023 at 12:03 PM..
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Old 03-27-2023, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,075 posts, read 7,266,216 times
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Here is some data on median student debt, by degree type and major.

https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-major

Something distressing is how large the balances are for associates degrees. How the hell are people racking up 10-20k debt for 2 year degrees? Those should be fully subsidized.

As for bachelors, there is little correlation between major type and loan balance. Both STEM and non-STEM are at the top and bottom of the list.

The problem is the general cost of college.
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Old 03-27-2023, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
11,751 posts, read 6,124,466 times
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[quote=redguard57;65042163]
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Over the past 60 years, real hourly wages for production and nonsupervisory workers increased by around 19% (adjusted for inflation) from 1964 to 2020, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). That is labor's share of productivity increases.



Education suffers from Baumol's cost disease. No technology we apply makes human brains work faster. There's no way to increase productivity in that sense. We can't increase the speed of production because the human brain learns at a speed set by evolution. Rather, technology inputs only increase the costs while production rate is the same. If all we still used were chalkboards we could deliver it cheaper.

Baumol looked at the cost of playing a piece of music. If you are going to play Beethoven's 9th, there's no way to improve that production process. It takes 70 minutes. Period. The cost of the musicians goes up over time. Technology inputs can improve the sound quality but it adds to your cost.



Which quite benefits the $1M guy!

Last I checked only 40% of workers have 401ks, and most of them have relatively small balances.
Even though 60% of Americans own stocks or stock funds, 90% of that value is owned by 10% of the population. A lot of people have just a little money in the market.

Also, just because someone has a 401k doesn't mean they aren't borrowing against it, robbing Peter to pay Paul. I know people who are far from retirement but are borrowing against their 401k to make ends meet.
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