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Old 06-13-2008, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,936 posts, read 7,136,329 times
Reputation: 5512

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
Don't jump on me for this but I disagree. I think we could have done a LOT.

Go check posts by bale, philip, Greg, CJFlorida (M.I.A). People knew about ALL of this as far back as the mid 90s. This was all started from the F.I.R.E. economy. We also transitioned into a debtor nation where GDP growth is based on consumer spending, consumer spending is spurred via debt (home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans etc.). We could have easily educated ourselves and not bought into the system. Voted out people who made this crap possible. Instead people were more concerned with getting money. Look at mass transit in say S. Florida. It SUCKS, and no one cared because it was poorer people who were taking mass transit. But now that its affecting everyone, now people want to cry about it. Here in South Florida they tried to pass a penny tax. The people voted it down because gas prices were low back then. Had people educated themselves they would have understood the concept of peak oil. They would have known this was going to happen. I knew what was coming back in 2003, but again that was from researching and reading, reading, reading.

But I guess research and educating ones self takes way to much time. People rather spew non facts and form opinions around them. You gotta watch the movie idiocracy, it pretty much nails it.
It started way before then. This has been in the making since the federal reserve act received Woodrow Wilson's signature. Americans lost their sovereignty the day they let a private corporation gain control of the nation's money supply. Isn't it fascinating to see the various fascist government organizations to come into play since then. ATF, CIA, IRS, FBI, DEA ect...
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Oxygen Ln. AZ
9,320 posts, read 17,283,173 times
Reputation: 5740
I am hoping that the lenders on the original loan could in fact go after some of these people. We have watched two couples in our development bail on their homes. Of course they both bought the biggest home in the mix, put in very expensive yards with their equitey money and bought 4 sets of new cars. One couple just could not make the payments, the other decided that they did not like owning something that was worth less than when they bought it. They could make the payments, just decided to let it go to ehll. Of course they ran out with the help of their realtor and purchased something before the moving van showed up. Really steamed me.
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
9,043 posts, read 12,015,285 times
Reputation: 1395
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexianPatriot View Post
It started way before then. This has been in the making since the federal reserve act received Woodrow Wilson's signature. Americans lost their sovereignty the day they let a private corporation gain control of the nation's money supply. Isn't it fascinating to see the various fascist government organizations to come into play since then. ATF, CIA, IRS, FBI, ect...
Excellent post!
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,936 posts, read 7,136,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
Look TexP America ain't going to die. In fact I expect really good thing to happen after this down turn. Will America be different? Yeah. But I think it will be for the better. At least from my standpoint. Look we survived the great depression we can survive this. Our economy is resilient and dynamic. so even if we get knocked on our back we will pick ourselves up again. It's kind of the movies Rocky I and II. We going to get our a$$ kicked for a while, get knocked down, almost knocked out. But some how we will have the strength to pick ourselves up off the canvas and continue on. We always done this and will continue to do so. Though we my have some scars to show for it.
I have less faith than you. I think the sheeple will put into power a tyrant that will promise them security in exchange for their liberty.
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:11 PM
 
3,460 posts, read 5,190,725 times
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I thought Hillary dropped out...
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:11 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,335,019 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexianPatriot View Post
You don't see the moral hazard in all of this. You don't see the lack of personal responsibility of borrowers? None of these banks forced people to sign the dotted line for an over inflated home. And you do realize that it was our government that in some cases forced lenders to make loans to people that shouldn't have been getting the loans to begin with. If you wanna go on with your corporation bashing, at least bash the correct one. The federal reserve is the only corporation that is fully backed via federal government coercion.
The Moral Hazard was breached years ago, first under Reagan when debt became money and fully under the Contract on America where concepts such as Usury were put away. (we are talking biblical principles, here).

After that the wolves were loosed on America. That these sheep have turned into goats and learned to ram the wolves -- so much the better. I have heard the dogma about loan terms this and that, and that all sounds fine, here in Texas -- did not happen like things did in California.

From speaking with real world people in real world California, these have been con loans foisted on them in conditions that meet the terms of duress. Could give you details -- have covered it here, but is outside the scope of this thread.

But back towards the "hazard" -- here is the question -- is it now some hazard because the peasants have figured out and turned the top end game back on itself?

As far as the corporate this and that, and the Federal Reserve -- all national banks are part of the Federal Reserve. Only one real animal you (and these folks) are fighting. It just has many names and faces, as it is legion.
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,055,870 times
Reputation: 555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
The Moral Hazard was breached years ago, first under Reagan when debt became money and fully under the Contract on America where concepts such as Usury were put away. (we are talking biblical principles, here).

After that the wolves were loosed on America. That these sheep have turned into goats and learned to ram the wolves -- so much the better. I have heard the dogma about loan terms this and that, and that all sounds fine, here in Texas -- did not happen like things did in California.

From speaking with real world people in real world California, these have been con loans foisted on them in conditions that meet the terms of duress. Could give you details -- have covered it here, but is outside the scope of this thread.

But back towards the "hazard" -- here is the question -- is it now some hazard because the peasants have figured out and turned the top end game back on itself?

As far as the corporate this and that, and the Federal Reserve -- all national banks are part of the Federal Reserve. Only one real animal you (and these folks) are fighting. It just has many names and faces, as it is legion.

Blah, let's just forgo contracts, obligations, and money all together and have anarchy ... Problem solved I need to go find me some guns and trip mines to line the perimeter of my house!

Seriously though, all these things going on just makes it harder for those who follow the rules. Interest rates will go up... risk margins go up... new "guidelines" and restrictions come into play, and the credibility of doing business with the United States and its' citizens get worse (I'm sure foreigners have a keen eye on us and how we deal with this mess - if they loose confidence in the U.S. it can be applied to confidence in investing in our economy ie, FDI, treasuries, our dollars, etc.). All bad for the 99% of the rest of us that actually follow rules. No wonder companies are trying to relocate operations and jobs elsewhere with no recourse... it is after all a "Business Decision". And besides, at least the peons in other countries are grateful and won't stick them with the bill.

Maybe as people that pay bills and feel that as citizens we have a moral, social, and financial obligation to our neighbors and communities we live in, that we should find these other peeps and..... *u fill in the blank*.

-chuck22b

Last edited by chuck22b; 06-13-2008 at 05:51 PM..
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:02 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,335,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck22b View Post
Blah, let's just forgo contracts, obligations, and money all together and have anarchy ... Problem solved I need to go find me some guns and trip mines to line the perimeter of my house!

Seriously though, all these things going on just makes it harder for those who follow the rules. Interest rates will go up... risk margins go up... new "guidelines" and restrictions come into play, and the credibility of doing business with the United States and its' citizens get worse (I'm sure foreigners have a keen eye on us and how we deal with this mess - if they loose confidence in the U.S. it can be applied to confidence in investing in our economy ie, FDI, treasuries, our dollars, etc.). All bad for the 99% of the rest of us that actually follow rules. No wonder companies are trying to relocate operations and jobs elsewhere with no recourse... it is after all a "Business Decision". And besides, at least the peons in other countries are grateful and won't stick them with the bill.

Maybe as people that pay bills and feel that as citizens we have a moral, social, and financial obligation to our neighbors and communities we live in, that we should find these other peeps and..... *u fill in the blank*.

-chuck22b
Cry me a river.

I have been parked for three years waiting for these idiot bankers to do their damage and be gone. From my point of view, I would happier if they were going broke and jumping out of windows faster. But like the parasites they are they are going to try to keep sucking the host until it is dead.

There are millions of us, having to wait out the idiot run-up in make-believe prices driven by the bad loans the banks wrote. They only wrote these loans because they managed to break free of legit lending practices and scam large (and even dumber) investment pools to buy their worthless loans on the secondary market.

It pleases me to no end that the same bottom-end the banks sought to exploit with their scam ARM (and all the rest) loans is going to be the banks' undoing. But are we all going to be harmed by these banks actions? Sure. The fool's companion always suffers harm.
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,055,870 times
Reputation: 555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Cry me a river.

I have been parked for three years waiting for these idiot bankers to do their damage and be gone. From my point of view, I would happier if they were going broke and jumping out of windows faster. But like the parasites they are they are going to try to keep sucking the host until it is dead.

There are millions of us, having to wait out the idiot run-up in make-believe prices driven by the bad loans the banks wrote. They only wrote these loans because they managed to break free of legit lending practices and scam large (and even dumber) investment pools to buy their worthless loans on the secondary market.

It pleases me to no end that the same bottom-end the banks sought to exploit with their scam ARM (and all the rest) loans is going to be the banks' undoing. But are we all going to be harmed by these banks actions? Sure. The fool's companion always suffers harm.
Well, if your someone waiting for prices to depreciate from artificial highs.. that will happen... and has been happening... People walking out with good credit making artificial purchases only keeps the bubble afloat (through fake sales stats and transactions even though its really a zero sum game). Higher sales stats makes builders build more... makes people think that prices are alright and prolongs the "float".

So, I'm not sure about your reasoning... if I was waiting, from your point of view... I wouldn't be supporting people with good credit buying "My" potential house just because their house is undervalued on paper. If they didn't get the new place, that house might of come down further. Basically it's a location shift.... bad areas would get worse... and better areas would start firming up. But... instead of you being able to get into the "better" location... the guy who shouldn't have... inflated/stabilized the price and prolonged/prevented your wait/purchase.

About banks... if all the banks fail... then...

if you work for someone... you'll be screwed

if you own your own business... you'll be screwed

if you live in the States... you'll be screwed

if you rely on business from the States... you'll be screwed

if you need a loan... your screwed.

Only, if you can grow your own food, rely on yourself, live where no one knows where you are... would you be fine. That's if all the banks fail.

Short sightedness got us into this problem... hopefully short/narrow mindedness wouldn't prolong it.

-chuck22b

Last edited by chuck22b; 06-13-2008 at 06:43 PM..
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:07 PM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,335,019 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck22b View Post
Well, if your someone waiting for prices to depreciate from artificial highs.. that will happen... and has been happening... People walking out with good credit making artificial purchases only keeps the bubble afloat (through fake sales stats and transactions - zero sum game). Higher sales stats makes builders build more... makes people think that prices are alright and prolongs the "float".

So, I'm not sure about your reasoning... if I was waiting, from your point of view... I wouldn't be supporting people with good credit buying "My" potential house just because their house is undervalued on paper. If they didn't get the new place, that house might of come down further. Basically it's a location shift.... bad areas would get worse... and better areas would start firming up. But... instead of you being able to get into the "better" location... the guy who shouldn't have... inflated/stabilized the price and prolonged/prevented your purchase/wait.
Writing down the banks is the short path out. Slap the crooked billionaires (on paper) down to the mere millionaires they were when this scam started. Put hard regulations on the banks that are kept around. Refund the ARM money they tried to cheat buyers into paying. Write down housing prices across the country to a level that normal working people can afford a reasonable house relative to their wages.

It would wipe out at least several trillion of make-believe value from America and probably require the shut down of the Bush/Cheney Oil Crusades in der Holy Lands, as well as about half the rest of our military misadventures. But I think I follow that something like 4 trillion has already evaporated.

But it will not happen orderly or come out well, as our top end are too much of moral cowards to do any of that which would harm the upper end.

Quote:

About banks... if all the banks fail... then...

if you work for someone... you'll be screwed
if you own your own business... you'll be screwed
if you live in the States... you'll be screwed
if you rely on business from the States... you'll be screwed
if you need a loan... your screwed.
Totally agree. Most of America already is screwed. But at this point just totally lacking situational awareness. Now we are just talking the "When" portion of the events, no longer what the events are and will be.

Quote:

Only, if you can grow your own food, rely on yourself, live where no one knows where you are... would you be fine. That's if all the banks fail.
Yep. Food and Energy are what I see folks fighting (even more for) fairly shorty.

Quote:
Short sightedness got us into this problem... hopefully short/narrow mindedness wouldn't prolong it.
Since we would rather kill the country than harm the Billionaire class, about the only path out I see at this point is when the boat sinks low enough for the rats that drove US here to start heading out.

Same thing has happened in other countries. That is why Gorbachev fled Russia and the Nazis fled Germany. Then after the fantasy of empire has faded away, we can start rebuilding the country.
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