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Old 06-27-2008, 11:22 PM
 
655 posts, read 757,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
The suburban way of life is not going away. Most people I know consider it anti-American to suggest everybody should live in cities. The suburban dream is woven into American culture so deeply that its become what being an American is all about. It will take a few generations to change that mindset. City-data is NOT an accurate representation of middle America and the type of living they prefer.
Agreed 100%. And the poster here who thinks we will just add water and become Europe overnight has no clue about the spirit and stubborness of the average American. Read history lady, we will not go silently.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:25 AM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,955,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
The suburban way of life is not going away. Most people I know consider it anti-American to suggest everybody should live in cities. The suburban dream is woven into American culture so deeply that its become what being an American is all about. It will take a few generations to change that mindset. City-data is NOT an accurate representation of middle America and the type of living they prefer.

The "suburban dream" is not American, but a corporate-created Nightmere. SMALL TOWN AMERICA is another story, which is what I am talking about, and it has been under assault sense the end of WWII...how many Norman Rockwell paintings have you seen that depict row after row of tract-houses with sedated-looking families eating Fish Sticks while watching sitcoms?

I, for the fifth time, am not talking about people living down town in apartments, but rather people going back to the traditional American Small Town that many posters here hate in favor of McMansions and strip malls. Small towns, with town squares, not malls, and walkable streets, not extra-big roads to accomodate SUVs, connected to thriving cities and bordered by traditional, American Family farms that provide them food...JUST LIKE IT WAS BEFORE THE NEOCON SOCIALIST TOOK OVER AND FORCED THE HORRORS OF SUBURBIA ON US. That is what the American middle-class can look forward to, not some socialist pipe-dream (all those houses look exactly alike in the Suburbs...Lenin has one in that regard)

The old America that America hating Socialist Neocons have been trying to destroy will return, and this time, we'll do it better!
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
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Of course there was a time when it was different in America. Back pre-WWII, most people either lived in cities/towns or rural areas. The 'suburbs' of the time were classy, walkable neighborhoods that are highly valued today. We can return there and will, but the change will take many decades and will be very painful. We might not even see it in our lifetime. One huge problem nobody talks about is the massive increase in population we've had since the 1940s. Going back to a pre-WWII way of life will be difficult with today's population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
The "suburban dream" is not American, but a corporate-created Nightmere. SMALL TOWN AMERICA is another story, which is what I am talking about, and it has been under assault sense the end of WWII...how many Norman Rockwell paintings have you seen that depict row after row of tract-houses with sedated-looking families eating Fish Sticks while watching sitcoms?
The American dream may not have originally been that McMansion in suburbia, but it has become that because thats whats been crammed down our throats as the 'American dream' for the past 60 years. Its not going to change overnight. Most people I know said they wouldn't leave it even if gas was $10/gallon.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:35 AM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,955,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travelmate38 View Post
Agreed 100%. And the poster here who thinks we will just add water and become Europe overnight has no clue about the spirit and stubborness of the average American. Read history lady, we will not go silently.

When did I say "overnight"? I said over the course of a few decades the suburbs as we know them will be gone...and when did I say "Europe"? Like Europe only in that we will go back to the pre-socialist small towns and do away with sprawl and tract-homes.

I have read history...ALLOT OF HISTORY, and, as I have said, the "Siberia-gulag" suburbs people live in now adays are something that has only popped up in the last 60 years, which replaced traditional, American small towns (i.e., VILLAGES)

This oil crisis will not end, and sooner or later Americans will look at an old Norman Rockwell painting depicting people happily living in their village where they work and like Kevin Spacey's character in "American Beauty", they will say "I've spent my whole life climbing a ladder...and it was on the wrong side." And go back to the old ways, only better...Rockwell 2.0, with small towns being serviced by mass-transit and buildt energy efficent, with family values (that the Neocons despise) returning...PARENTS ACTAUALLY SPENDING TIME WITH THEIR CHILDREN?!?!?

All the while we will not make the same social mistakes we did in the past...less homophobia, less racism, less sexism, etc.

Americans will soon realize that the Socialist Neocons and their syndicalist allies (i.e., corporate America) has been selling American's a Trojan horse for the last 60 years and America will return to it's rightful glory, wether a few America hating Neocons like it or not!
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
7,946 posts, read 15,400,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
with small towns being serviced by mass-transit and buildt energy efficent, with family values (that the Neocons despise) returning...PARENTS ACTAUALLY SPENDING TIME WITH THEIR CHILDREN?!?!?
We can only dream of this. I believe you may be onto something about the moral downfall of our society today. Parents no longer rear their children because they are too wrapped up in the suburban rat race.

As I said before though, I think our population has grown too large to support such a utopia. If anything, we will become more like Latin American cities, with mostly dense development except for the impoverished "barrios" on the outskirts. Of course, this will take MANY decades. Americans are going to do everything they can to save their percieved "American dream".
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:42 AM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,955,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
Of course there was a time when it was different in America. Back pre-WWII, most people either lived in cities/towns or rural areas. The 'suburbs' of the time were classy, walkable neighborhoods that are highly valued today. We can return there and will, but the change will take many decades and will be very painful. We might not even see it in our lifetime. One huge problem nobody talks about is the massive increase in population we've had since the 1940s. Going back to a pre-WWII way of life will be difficult with today's population.
One of my favorite songs, "Solitary" by VNV Nation, has a line that I love...


" And if rain brings winds of change, let it rain on us forever"

This is America, and despite what a handful will have you believe, we can and will endure the rain. It will be hard, we will have bumps on the way, but we are Americans, and we will change and prevail




Quote:
The American dream may not have originally been that McMansion in suburbia, but it has become that because thats whats been crammed down our throats as the 'American dream' for the past 60 years. Its not going to change overnight. Most people I know said they wouldn't leave it even if gas was $10/gallon.

Anyone can say " I'm gonna live in my ugly tract home and drive and hour for a carton of milk at the strip mall forever!" when gas is still affordable...when it isn't affordable any more, I bet you they'll change their town.

Once "survival" replaces "McMansion" on the priority list, things will change. Ohh, and as for population growth, all it means is that more town will become cities and more small town will become large towns and more empty fields will become small towns. All within a twenty mile radius of a city...you would be suprised how much land is not used or misused within twenty miles of NYC alone.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:42 AM
 
9,638 posts, read 24,377,992 times
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Victorian Punk,
I completely share your dislike of the Neocons and see the control that corporations have over America as a really bad thing, but why pick on the socialists?
Under socialism, the state controls the economy and there are no privately owned corporations. It may not work, but it's nothing like the current giveaway of America to big corporations.
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:30 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,806,909 times
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So guys we've talk about how life could possibly change in living arrangements Ad nauseam. Now guys let here some ideas on what we must do as a country at an economic level to recover from a possible deep recession/depression. And tell us here at CD how this will make America better for the next century.

And please don't get too political on it. I personally like plans not rhetoric.
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Old 06-28-2008, 05:37 AM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,764,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira500 View Post
Victorian Punk,
I completely share your dislike of the Neocons and see the control that corporations have over America as a really bad thing, but why pick on the socialists?
Under socialism, the state controls the economy and there are no privately owned corporations. It may not work, but it's nothing like the current giveaway of America to big corporations.
you don't think the govt controls the economy in America? :S

Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
So guys we've talk about how life could possibly change in living arrangements Ad nauseam. Now guys let here some ideas on what we must do as a country at an economic level to recover from a possible deep recession/depression. And tell us here at CD how this will make America better for the next century.

And please don't get too political on it. I personally like plans not rhetoric.
we don't have to do anything. Just sit back and wait for it to play out. The powers that be are going to do their thing to make the transition. Besides, what needs to be done can not be fixed by average know nothing on the street. ONLY thing you can do is elect officials that have a clear vision to make this change happen. I just stress that people need to start doing more research before they go vote this year. Voting based on emotions will get us in deeper trouble

Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
The suburban way of life is not going away. Most people I know consider it anti-American to suggest everybody should live in cities. The suburban dream is woven into American culture so deeply that its become what being an American is all about. It will take a few generations to change that mindset. City-data is NOT an accurate representation of middle America and the type of living they prefer.
Mass transit ridership has sky rocketed in the last year. I assure you, many on those trains/buses are the same ones who detested mass transit in years past. My point you ask? External factors beyond johnny know nothings control will change that attitude quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
THANK YOU! The modern Suburbian nightmere dates back to the 1940s...villages and cities date back to about 4,000 B.C. Which do you think is probably a more sustainable model, one that has been with us for sixty years, or one that has been with us for 6,000?

The future: Within the City proper (downtown) office buidlings, cultural centers, entertainment, and jobs. Outside of downtown, the wealthy in highrises. Outside of the City, Satellite cities and towns (villages) for the middle-class linked to the big city by mass-transit. We are already seeing this with Bellvue and Seattle and Portland and Vancouver. Ten miles and beyond away from mass-transit availability, lower-income people (but not super-poor) over twenty miles away from mass-transit availability, slums, empty no-man's lands, and the occassional enclave of the wealthy in a gated-community.
Past the slums and gated-communities, farmlands. Past the farmlands, nothing much except nature until you get to the next city-system.

Sounds like a nice, sane, sustainable model to me. Best part is, it will be here soon enough! All we have to do is sit back and let the beautiful free-market undo the suburbian mistake.
this sums it all up!

I think a lot of people are under the foolish assumption that we believe suburbia will just dry up and disappear. NO, that is not what ANY of us are saying. These same homes in suburbia will be there. What you will see is infill and a transformation of suburbs. The ones that are REALLY far out, now those might be in a bit of trouble unless the people there are some how filthy rich.

As for the city core and who will live there. I do not agree it will be for the filthy rich. Lets take Miami for example. They had a HUGE condo explosion. At one point condos were going for 350,000 and up for one bedrooms. Well now you can find them for 150,000. There was a 3 story pent house in downtown Fort Lauderdale that went for 500,000 last year. It originally sold for 3.5 million. This down turn is going to level the playing field greatly. Now in the really high end condos, the rich will live there for certain. But in the mid level ones I definitely see middle class families having their portion too. Real Estate is falling in all these major cities that went out of control in prices.

Last edited by Wild Style; 06-28-2008 at 05:47 AM..
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Old 06-28-2008, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,806,909 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
we don't have to do anything. Just sit back and wait for it to play out. The powers that be are going to do their thing to make the transition. Besides, what needs to be done can not be fixed by average know nothing on the street. ONLY thing you can do is elect officials that have a clear vision to make this change happen. I just stress that people need to start doing more research before they go vote this year. Voting based on emotions will get us in deeper troubleQUOTE]

While I can't argue that sitting back and waiting for things to clear up is a strategy. I personally would like to hear some thoughts on where we need focus our eyes for the future when we do hit bottom. I mean, yeah we can sit back and say that investing in this or that is prohibitive because current conditions. But where are your eyes right now? What are we watching out there? What industries? What services? Is there a shift needed in the American economic psyche? And yeah living arrangements is part of the scheme of things but it can't be the only thing.
As for whom we vote for and our government in general. I feel that real change usually starts at the bottom not the top. If the people decide that we truly need change how we do our business eventually our government will have no choice but to respond to that will. I mean wildstyle we have discussed before about the mom/pop revolution before. That will be a bottom up change in America not a top down initative. At least that how I see that one.

But let's see if any one else has a vibe or perception out there. We might see some interesting that we have not considered before.
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