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Old 06-28-2008, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,068 posts, read 74,761,325 times
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So, let's say we hit bottom and now have to work our way back up.
I say get rid of any and all corporate subsidies. Small business and small farms should get the better deal from the government, not the likes of Walmart or Cargill.

That would give the small business owner the same chance to suceed as Big C. That alone could help get back to that "small town" America feel.

Give America back to the people.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,006,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Ohh, and as for population growth, all it means is that more town will become cities and more small town will become large towns and more empty fields will become small towns. All within a twenty mile radius of a city...you would be suprised how much land is not used or misused within twenty miles of NYC alone.
Isn't that Exactly what I was talking about on how LA has expanded? But instead of One Single Downtown, Population growth expanded enough to have Multiple Downtowns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
So, let's say we hit bottom and now have to work our way back up.
I say get rid of any and all corporate subsidies. Small business and small farms should get the better deal from the government, not the likes of Walmart or Cargill.

That would give the small business owner the same chance to suceed as Big C. That alone could help get back to that "small town" America feel.

Give America back to the people.
I believe we'll see a Nationalist movement among middle Americans (to bring back American Jobs, buy American, support American Innovation, small businesses, etc. - which will bring back some American manufacturing) and a socialogical push back to basics and retrenching (savings rate increasing, materialistic lifestyle subsiding, family values).

As far as the big boys, I don't think the coorporations are going away anytime soon but are going to be even more globalized and probably even more controlled by foreigners. Part of being "Capitalististic" leads to mega corporations. Small businesses are increasingly harder to come by, but will always exist since we have open markets, capitalism, and entrepreneurism. But, those with more capital will probably go to other countries to start their ventures as it becomes increasingly difficult to "start-up" in America.

Shift back to jobs in America -
As the developing countries push forward and become "developed" countries, the manufacturing and services labor arbitages won't show as much of a value proposition.

More immigrants -
Increasing globalization will allow for more American ex-patriots to live overseas, likewise more Immigrants with Cash and Business ventures will come here from overseas whether by creating regional HQs here or our corporations bringing them here through H1-bs etc.

More Foreign Direct Investment - (as other Countries continue to purchase American Assets, and build their own)
Why? Because the most valuable thing America has to offer to the world is our diversity, stability (in government, regulation, standards, and intelluctual property rights - as the Developing Countries become developed they'll produce more and more intelluctual property - foreign patents into America are increasing), and existing infrastructure.

Rise in foreign patent filings in the U.S. noted

Likewise to stay competitive, we'll have more Government Spending and Private/Government Partnership - in Infrastructure, alternative energy, and a push towards "sustainable" cities and less foreign energy dependency.

I think America'll do just fine in the future. We'll just need to open our eyes that the world is more than just the "USA" and sell more to the world whether they be services (since we have the most experience being "Capitalist") or our goods - which hopefully production costs will lessen when energy alternatives come on line.

-chuck22b

Last edited by chuck22b; 06-28-2008 at 09:18 AM..
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:33 AM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,766,746 times
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[quote=baystater;4261480]
Quote:


While I can't argue that sitting back and waiting for things to clear up is a strategy. I personally would like to hear some thoughts on where we need focus our eyes for the future when we do hit bottom. I mean, yeah we can sit back and say that investing in this or that is prohibitive because current conditions. But where are your eyes right now? What are we watching out there? What industries? What services? Is there a shift needed in the American economic psyche? And yeah living arrangements is part of the scheme of things but it can't be the only thing.
As for whom we vote for and our government in general. I feel that real change usually starts at the bottom not the top. If the people decide that we truly need change how we do our business eventually our government will have no choice but to respond to that will. I mean wildstyle we have discussed before about the mom/pop revolution before. That will be a bottom up change in America not a top down initative. At least that how I see that one.

But let's see if any one else has a vibe or perception out there. We might see some interesting that we have not considered before.
I see what you mean. Well I guess, start buying American made products right. Don't do business with any company who doesn't offer American made products. Support local shops in your neighborhood/area. If there are local farm co ops, get behind them!

Also, people need to rip up their credit cards. Start living with in your means. Start saving money. Help the country become a country that builds based on savings and not debt.

There also needs to be a shift in thinking. People need to get over the me-ism and start thinking in terms of nation\community\neighborhood

Write your local commissioners and let them know you want/demand better mass transit in your area. Try to organize groups at church, synagogue, masjid, temple that will vote as a block and press local officials for change.

as for investment, people need to research on that one.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
2,686 posts, read 7,138,129 times
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Default good intentions wild style

I agree with what you are saying but don't seriously believe people will actually start supporting the small guys or saving. We are too selfish and too short-sighted, wanting everything now.

We all love mom and pop stores yet the vast majority of us shop at walmart or target (my dad does not but he is unusual).
I also think we are not at bottom economy-wise. It will get worse before it gets better.

The road to hell after all is paved with good intentions.
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:14 PM
 
9,638 posts, read 24,384,528 times
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you don't think the govt controls the economy in America?

The government wishes it controlled the economy, but the economy does things that are outside of the government's control. I was pointing out how we are not socialist in this country. Under socialism, the government takes all the tax money and squanders it because there is no incentive to produce. What we've got here: The government takes all the tax money and gives it to large corporations or pays agribusiness not to grow wheat...there's an additional filter, the corporations...
Strikes me that going into a huge debt to fight the war is not beneficial to the economy, but providing incentives to rebuild the infrastructure and rebuild the manufacturing base makes sense.
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:26 PM
 
Location: WA
5,472 posts, read 21,912,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
...
I say get rid of any and all corporate subsidies.
...
That will shut down much farming, every ethanol refinery, most wind and solar, and a lot of other things.

While I sure don't have a problem with it in concept I would worry it would really hurt the economy and some important industry.

Probably more complicated than we know.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:35 PM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,957,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira500 View Post
Victorian Punk,
I completely share your dislike of the Neocons and see the control that corporations have over America as a really bad thing, but why pick on the socialists?
Under socialism, the state controls the economy and there are no privately owned corporations. It may not work, but it's nothing like the current giveaway of America to big corporations.

Neocons are Socialist...they started out with Troskyites in America who wanted the US to have a tough foreign policy against the Soviet Union which was ran by their arch-enemy, Stalin. They slowly got into GOP politics, and have combined Troskyist-socialism with the new GOP and created Neonconservatism.

Socialism is a failed system that has been tried, and failed, and capitalism is a better system. Problem is, America is no longer a capitalist system, but is essentially a kind of socialism for the rich with the government giving huge breaks to the corporations while establishing policies that make it harder and harder for new, small businesses to take down the big boys, i.e., less competition.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:44 PM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,766,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humboldt1 View Post
I agree with what you are saying but don't seriously believe people will actually start supporting the small guys or saving. We are too selfish and too short-sighted, wanting everything now.

We all love mom and pop stores yet the vast majority of us shop at walmart or target (my dad does not but he is unusual).
I also think we are not at bottom economy-wise. It will get worse before it gets better.

The road to hell after all is paved with good intentions.
I didn't say it will happen over night. But, I believe it will happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Neocons are Socialist...they started out with Troskyites in America who wanted the US to have a tough foreign policy against the Soviet Union which was ran by their arch-enemy, Stalin. They slowly got into GOP politics, and have combined Troskyist-socialism with the new GOP and created Neonconservatism.

Socialism is a failed system that has been tried, and failed, and capitalism is a better system. Problem is, America is no longer a capitalist system, but is essentially a kind of socialism for the rich with the government giving huge breaks to the corporations while establishing policies that make it harder and harder for new, small businesses to take down the big boys, i.e., less competition.
capitalism has NEVER worked. EVER. You can not point to ONE place where it has worked. You can not allow corporations to run buck wild and free without regulation. They are entities without emotion or sense of well being for the society they operate in. That always spells disaster.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:49 PM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,957,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
So guys we've talk about how life could possibly change in living arrangements Ad nauseam. Now guys let here some ideas on what we must do as a country at an economic level to recover from a possible deep recession/depression. And tell us here at CD how this will make America better for the next century.

And please don't get too political on it. I personally like plans not rhetoric.

Well, one of the beauties of capitalism is that we, the people, as individuals, with our cash/capital, can help the future by investing. I would say invest in smaller farm/agriculture companies based in the US that have production facilities in the US. As the cost of transportation continues to skyrocket, even after the higher cost of labor is adjusted for, it makes ALLOT MORE SENSE to grow tomatoes in upstate Ulster county for NYC than it does to grow them in Mexico (where labor is cheaper) and ship them to NYC.
This will also lead (not overnight) to the family farm, or at least the farming industry, to get back on it's feet in America and, as farmland is used for FARMING once again and not sold to make Exurbs, which no one wants due to the housing slump and the high cost of commuting with gas prices, sprawl will be slowed down and, eventually, stopped.

Also, people need to start lobbying congress about a tax on Yuan/dollar and Rupee/dollar transactions over 500 dollars (that way American tourist aren't punished) That way, it wouldn't be so cheap for a corporation to ship and IT job to India or a factory to China. With the money raised from the said tax on Chinese and Indian currency, America could finance a tax cut for manufacturing facilities that are buildt here in the US. With the 1-2 punch of taxes on shipping jobs away and tax breaks for building a factory here, and the high-cost of shipping, jobs will slowly start to return to America.

Just some ideas of mine...
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:55 PM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,957,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post


capitalism has NEVER worked. EVER. You can not point to ONE place where it has worked. You can not allow corporations to run buck wild and free without regulation. They are entities without emotion or sense of well being for the society they operate in. That always spells disaster.

My concept of capitalism is more than just lack of socialism. Capitalism is a system in which competition is encourages by government, and government acts as a referee for the sport of profit through transparency, a republic system, and individual liberites.

Also, the free-market only works if the individual is granted universal freedoms...the press, speech, assembly, the right to bear arms etc.

Example: Unions are a form of Capitalism. It is a group of people forming a private organization (a union) to negotiate the sale of a commodity they own (their labor) to a buyer (the company). They can refuse to sell (strike) and use freedom of speech (protest) if the terms of negotiation are unacceptable.

However, America has been slowly changed into a syndicalist thanks to a handful of fools in charge.

Capitalism, at it's best, is an awful system...it is, however, allot better than any of the other systems.
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