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Old 06-26-2008, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,933 posts, read 6,975,709 times
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VP=clueless
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:22 PM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,958,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelatc View Post
No, we were absolutely not meant to live in little boxes all stacked up on top of each other. I've studied it too, and I'm pretty much convinced that cramming people into small spaces results in nothing but broken spirit.

Actually, I am a student of psychology, and I can tell you that when people live and work in the same place, they're allot happier as they're co-workers are also their neighbors and it creates an instant sense of community, something lacking in most suburbs.


Quote:
Bringing an end to the suburbs means bringing an end to the middle class.
In the 18th century, "suburbs" where the slums...history is repeating.

Ohh, and there as a middle class back then, believe it or not.

Quote:
And I've been to Europe, and I freaking hate it there. Little teeny apartments, little teeny cars, little teeny roads. There's nothing there to be happy about.


Denmark is the world's happiest country - official - Europe, World - The Independent


Ohh, and I can't help but think, whenever I see someone driving one of those UGLY SUVs ( that Bin-Ladin loves, btw) that "man...what a big SUV he has. Maybe he's trying to make up for something that isn't ALL THAT BIG"


And this, by the way, is my new fuel-efficent vehicle...it gets 48 miles to gallon highway, and I do think it will make me happy


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Old 06-26-2008, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Tucson
42,835 posts, read 80,640,943 times
Reputation: 22814
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Suffer for your mistakes for a few years, than Move

Hey, the suburbia thing, from a economic, environmental, socialogical and political stand point was a very BAD IDEA. I sad it ever since I was thirteen years old, and as I got older and read up on it, found that it indeed is a very BAD IDEA. We were made to live in villages or cities, not endless developments and McMansions.

The future, which is coming sooner than most think, will have cities laid out on a hub-and-spoke grid: the major city's core in the middle, with smaller, satelite cities and villages surrounding it connected by mass transit networks, or "spokes of the wheel". The suburbs will become the new ghettoes, and rural life will go on as always with people using biodesel or something.

I have met so many Europeans who ask me the same thing: why don't Americans live in villages like we do? Isn't this lifestyle depressing? Well, it is, and the Euroes are right. We will live to see the Greatest Generation's greatest mistake come to and end, and that makes me happy.


Say good-buy to that suburbian nightmere in "American Beauty", and say hello to "The Shire"

Thanks oil-speculators
You're preaching to the choir on this one. I AM from Europe, so you can believe me how much I hate suburbia, strip malls, etc. boredom and how much I miss a normal and lively downtown. However, you can't change a way of life that's been established for decades. What are you gonna do - have abandoned suburban ghettos and 10 people per sq.ft. in downtown? And as much as I like downtown myself, I'd never live in an American downtown unless I have money to burn and live in a nice and safe place.
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:51 PM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,958,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraAZ View Post
You're preaching to the choir on this one. I AM from Europe, so you can believe me how much I hate suburbia, strip malls, etc. boredom and how much I miss a normal and lively downtown. However, you can't change a way of life that's been established for decades. What are you gonna do - have abandoned suburban ghettos and 10 people per sq.ft. in downtown? And as much as I like downtown myself, I'd never live in an American downtown unless I have money to burn and live in a nice and safe place.

Change will come over the next decade or two, not over night.

And I am not talking about people living downtown, but in satellite cities and smaller outlying areas and working in the inner core (downtown) of cities. Example: Vancover Washington is a smaller, residential city right across the bridge from Portland Oregon, a large industrial city. A little expansion to mass transit and presto! One can live in Vancover or another community near by and go to work and back without driving.

That is the future...not strip-malls and endless rows of the SAME DAMN HOUSE






No thanks!
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
7,946 posts, read 15,404,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Change will come over the next decade or two, not over night.

And I am not talking about people living downtown, but in satellite cities and smaller outlying areas and working in the inner core (downtown) of cities. Example: Vancover Washington is a smaller, residential city right across the bridge from Portland Oregon, a large industrial city. A little expansion to mass transit and presto! One can live in Vancover or another community near by and go to work and back without driving.

That is the future...not strip-malls and endless rows of the SAME DAMN HOUSE






No thanks!
What, you full of envy because you can't own one of those homes? I lived in a neighborhood like that when I was very young in the '80s (out in California) and I have nothing but fond memories of it. In all honesty, when I am ready to settle down and have kids, I wont want to live in an apartment downtown, I will want a home with a yard (no SUV though). Unfortunately today's gas prices are making it more and more impractical all the time.

Now THIS kind of development is ugly and undesirable to me.

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Old 06-26-2008, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Tucson
42,835 posts, read 80,640,943 times
Reputation: 22814
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Change will come over the next decade or two, not over night.

And I am not talking about people living downtown, but in satellite cities and smaller outlying areas and working in the inner core (downtown) of cities. Example: Vancover Washington is a smaller, residential city right across the bridge from Portland Oregon, a large industrial city. A little expansion to mass transit and presto! One can live in Vancover or another community near by and go to work and back without driving.
I with you're right (my best years have been wasted), but I can't really see it happening. I live in a neighborhood that's supposed to become the antidote to urban sprawl, a mixed-use community, blah, blah, blah. Yet, the second phase of it where I live never really complied to the original idea (the land was bought by a mass builder, which is the reason I can afford to live here ), much to the disappointment of the earlier residents. Our houses are energy-efficient, have solar panels, many of the garages are back-loaded, there are many parks, paths, courts, etc., but the place doesn't have urban feel to it. Neither does the first phase really, but its residents like to think so only because there are a few businesses there. You can check out the project if you're interested:

PD&R: FieldWorks

The Literal Landscape : Column by Simmons B. Buntin : Terrain.org

To be honest, I'm not holding my breath for any of this happening:

The Civano project in Tucson, Arizona, may be largest U.S. example of a community being built following sustainable development principles. From their Web site: "Civano's master plan envisions construction of 2,300 homes and apartments and creation of 1,200 jobs on the site. In eight to twelve years, Civano will become home to over 5,000 people and the location of light industry, offices, and retail businesses. Commercial, cultural, and civic activity clustered in the village core will foster a small town ambiance. Businesses in Civano will provide jobs for some of the residents, reducing the need for automobile travel and its attendant air pollution."

Sprawl Guide: Solutions (Creating a Sense of Place) (http://www.plannersweb.com/sprawl/solutions_place.html - broken link)

With more retail and a hospital coming, the neighborhood might get some jobs, but nothing is or will be truly within walking distance. I drive to the pool, for cryin' out loud! Yeah, OK, technically I COULD walk, but who wants to walk in this heat...

P.S. Just realized I must be awfully distracted (certainly not forgiving) to be talking to you, but won't delete the post as it might be of interest to others.

Last edited by sierraAZ; 06-26-2008 at 10:43 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:48 PM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,958,025 times
Reputation: 3454
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
What, you full of envy because you can't own one of those homes? I lived in a neighborhood like that when I was very young in the '80s (out in California) and I have nothing but fond memories of it. In all honesty, when I am ready to settle down and have kids, I wont want to live in an apartment downtown, I will want a home with a yard (no SUV though). Unfortunately today's gas prices are making it more and more impractical all the time.

Now THIS kind of development is ugly and undesirable to me.


Like I JUST SAID, I am not talking about living downtown, but living in a small town close to (as in less twenty miles or less) and and close to a big city. This is a place I would raise a family in ( it worked for the Cosbys) and is a place I AM envious of, not some American Beauty-eque nightmere:


Imagine that, times 10,000,000, and you have the future of America, not some development that contibutes to depression, teenage drug-use (not much else to do in the 'burbs, and parents have such a long commute compared to kids they have all the time in the world to get stone) alientation (must people in suburbs don't know they're neighbors) and no community what-so-ever, while VILLAGES (again, not downtown) are the ideal place to raise a family.


This: http://bp1.blogger.com/_i8YmC41u0qE/R2Lkxyr602I/AAAAAAAABcY/g_gCGGX8HAE/s400/Sprawl.jpg (broken link)

Or this:





You decide.


Ohh, and no matter how you think, when gas hits fifteen dollars a gallon ( within the decade, IT IS A GUARANTEE) you will no longer be able to do the hour commute, and neither will anyone else, so, good-buy to the great suburbian mistake and hello to "The Shire" next to "the City".

In the words of my heroes: " Resistance is Futile"


Also, the "I want my own yard!" thing you said is part of the problem. Your own yard...where your kids can play by themselves and not socialize with other kids except maybe a few friends they have over for "play dates". In the future, almost no one will have a yard and instead, they'll be more parks where kids can play together, meet other kids, and actually form a community, and areas where adults can sit around in communal sidewalk cafe type places and actually (gasp!) talk to their neighbors, as opposed to "Barbequing" in the backyard while yelling at the misses and never seeing a neighbor except maybe to yell across the fence.

Quotes on BBQ because the REAL practice involves burying a pig in a smoking pit for a day or two, while Americans call simply "grilling" barbequing.

Last edited by victorianpunk; 06-26-2008 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:53 PM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,958,025 times
Reputation: 3454
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraAZ View Post
I with you're right (my best years have been wasted), but I can't really see it happening. I live in a neighborhood that's supposed to become the antidote to urban sprawl, a mixed-use community, blah, blah, blah. Yet, the second phase of it where I live never really complied to the original idea (the land was bought by a mass builder, which is the reason I can afford to live here ), much to the disappointment of the earlier residents. Our houses are energy-efficient, have solar panels, many of the garages are back-loaded, there are many parks, paths, courts, etc., but the place doesn't have urban feel to it. Neither does the first phase really, but its residents like to think so only because there are a few businesses there. You can check out the project if you're interested:

PD&R: FieldWorks

The Literal Landscape : Column by Simmons B. Buntin : Terrain.org

To be honest, I'm not holding my breath for any of this happening:

The Civano project in Tucson, Arizona, may be largest U.S. example of a community being built following sustainable development principles. From their Web site: "Civano's master plan envisions construction of 2,300 homes and apartments and creation of 1,200 jobs on the site. In eight to twelve years, Civano will become home to over 5,000 people and the location of light industry, offices, and retail businesses. Commercial, cultural, and civic activity clustered in the village core will foster a small town ambiance. Businesses in Civano will provide jobs for some of the residents, reducing the need for automobile travel and its attendant air pollution."

Sprawl Guide: Solutions (Creating a Sense of Place) (http://www.plannersweb.com/sprawl/solutions_place.html - broken link)

With more retail and a hospital coming, the neighborhood might get some jobs, but nothing is or will be truly within walking distance. I drive to the pool, for cryin' out loud! Yeah, OK, technically I COULD walk, but who wants to walk in this heat...

P.S. Just realized I must be awfully distracted (certainly not forgiving) to be talking to you, but won't delete the post as it might be of interest to others.

In other words, a community PLANNED did not work. Of course. However, this is different. There is no plan, as much as NECESSITY. When gasoline is fifteen dollars a gallon, suddenly, living in the shadow of your job in a cottage near a train stop and a market as opposed to driving an hour to work and ANOTHER HOUR to get a gallon of milk does not sound so bad after all.

What happened to you was people given an option, and not choosing to change their suburbian sprawl ways. Great thing about the end of oil is, now, my fellow Americans ( about 85% of whom, I hate to say, are idiots) HAVE NO CHOICE! They;ll have to live closer to where they work, take mass transit, and maybe (gasp!) actually WALK from here to there every now and again. Obesity will go down, needless to say.

It's depressing that Americans didn't choose to change, instead, they waited until they had change forced onto them.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Tucson
42,835 posts, read 80,640,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
Now THIS kind of development is ugly and undesirable to me.

That's exactly the type of the development I despise, too.
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:07 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
2,657 posts, read 7,324,722 times
Reputation: 4309
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
And this, by the way, is my new fuel-efficent vehicle...it gets 48 miles to gallon highway, and I do think it will make me happy


Meh. A Harley. What is that - a Softail? For gawd's sake, don't be putting the "potato-potato" exhaust on it, you'll have people in your "village" shrilling about the noise.

I had a whole paragraph laid out .. it's the same in the scooter world (of which I've been a part for years) where those getting into that market because of gas prices think they have to have a Vespa; feeling more compelled to spend a lot for a little; making us more experienced scooterists roll our eyes . It's even the same argument "they hold their value". But it comes down to "each to their own", so whatever makes you happy, have fun on your ride

Back to the original thread .... The Atlantic Monthly recently published an article that has spread all over the blogger world
The Next Slum?
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