U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-27-2008, 09:19 AM
 
19,084 posts, read 20,640,162 times
Reputation: 8353

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Alas, when you add the high-cost of oil, the subprime-housing market, and the fact that we JUST DON'T HAVE THE TIME to create a real alternative to oil between now $300 oil, what you get is a perfect storm that will force people to change their ways. In the late 40s and 50s, the suburbs were born...in the early years of the 21st century, they will, for the most part, vanish. What rises usually also falls.
You should tell the real estate agents and sellers that... I am itching to buy more land in suburbia, unfortunately they are all overpriced... with your magic wand, can you give me a date as to when suburban land prices will be below 50k for 1 acre? When? Next year? Two years? Three years? By your reckoning on how bad it is, it should be within a month.. excuse me if I don't hold my breath...

Quote:
When did I say I liked the European economic system? 40% income tax, are you crazy? I am just saying that in the area of housing, they did not make the mistake we did. Also, notice what I have been saying, the free-market will force people to go to what they can afford, not some government program. And what people can afford is to live in satellite cities, not the suburbian nightmere.
Move to a place i can afford? That would still be suburbia, good to know I am safe..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-27-2008, 09:40 AM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,948,180 times
Reputation: 3454
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverwing View Post
Psychology of economics, common sense, and other people dictating how you should live your life because .. well .. studies have proven they will be happy, even if they protest not.

Honda makes as handsome a cruiser as a Harley, with lower price, a better support system, and a large village of riders. Events where Honda Riders congregate have less of a negative impact on the area and are better perceived by people who see them come to town (as seen by the difference in perception at the annual Honda Hoot in Knoxville, TN versus the recent Harley-Chopper Smokeout in my area. Boy were a lot of the locals unhappy about that ). You would be happier riding a Honda, seeing the resources ($$) that can be saved and the larger, more accepted community you could belong to, but no ... you gotta have a Harley; it's been your dream since you were a kid.

*shrug* The same can be said of the environments people choose as their homes. What you dictate would make better sense, economically and in the impact on society. What people's dreams are don't always make sense and can create a negative impact on the rest of the community. Still, that's how they choose to live because it's what truly makes them happy; it's something for which they had planned.

And, as far as loud Harleys, they aren't made that way anymore. In fact, the manufacturer now campaigns against that nuisance
Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Company Speaks about Loud Exhaust Pipes - News & Updates - Motorcycle Cruiser
However, loud pipes (or at least the "throaty, rumbling" kind) tend to be the mantra of Harley riders so there is no dearth of after market parts.

Listen, there is what people dream of, and what people can afford ( who would dream of living in "The Dick VanDyke show" is beyond me) I am not, repeat, am NOT saying that laws of the government will have much to do with people being forced out of the 'burbs, but rather, that the economics will cause most people to leave the suburbs and move closer to their jobs.

People might WANT to live in a McMansion in the 'burbs, but the cost of gas and energy will make people decide that they cannot afford it and move to a cottage. I WANT a wizard's tower like this,


Where I can be alone with my alchemical experiments and HUGE Goetia symbol on the floor in the deepest dungeon


That I use only to contact things-which-I-should-not-be-contacting but guess what? I don't have the fifty million such a tower would probably cost, therefore, I am content to use the walk-in closet that I don't use for anything else to combine my High John the Conqueroe root and sulfur*

And guess what? No GOVERNMENT POLICY FORCED ME TO COME TO THAT DECISION. It's the free-market that makes me in an apartment and not a castle on a mountain, and it is the free-market that will cause people to give up the 'burbs to live closer to work.

Also, a Harley does not have to be loud, and a street bike (including the Harley street rod) is not nearly as loud as a chopper. Honda bikes outsell Harley in the US I think, because, like I am advocating, the free-market and social norms makes it that way. Some people have a norrow minded view on Harley-Davidison riders thinking that they're all rude, vile "outlaws", which is like saying all Cadillac drivers (I'm one of them...I got it at a government auction for 10,000. a steal) are in the mafia or are African American pimps in the inner-city.



* as for my, ohh....unorthodox hobbies, those are things Bush the Neocons have not managed to outlaw yet, along with the free-market they so despise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2008, 09:51 AM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,948,180 times
Reputation: 3454
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
You should tell the real estate agents and sellers that... I am itching to buy more land in suburbia, unfortunately they are all overpriced... with your magic wand, can you give me a date as to when suburban land prices will be below 50k for 1 acre? When? Next year? Two years? Three years? By your reckoning on how bad it is, it should be within a month.. excuse me if I don't hold my breath...
Why don't you see what a brown-stone in NYC cost, and you'll be suprised. Compare that to the cost of a ugle McMansion in Jersey, and guess what? The McMansion is still allot cheaper. Like I said, these changes will take place over a decade or two. The Suburbian sociological and ecological nightmere took decades of free-market natural law to come to fruition, and that same free-market natural law will take decades to get rid of it.


Quote:
Move to a place i can afford? That would still be suburbia, good to know I am safe..

By all means, do so. I (unlike Chairmen Bush) believe in a free-market. I also understand that the free-market changes the way people live, including saying good-buy to the suburbs for most people. There will be some with money living in the 'burbs (in those awful gated communities, no doubt) but others, the majority, will kiss the 'burbs a not-so-fond adios.

As for safety, if you carry a gun, you're safe anywhere almost, as NOWHERE is truly safe... Gang Membership Grows In Middle-Class Suburbs - New York Times
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2008, 10:07 AM
 
6,342 posts, read 8,948,180 times
Reputation: 3454
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverwing View Post
No, I don't want to

I want to sit out on my screen porch and read my books - IN PEACE and QUIET. I want to take my Chinsters out back and play fetch IN MY OWN YARD, not some dog park where there are dozens of other yapping pets vying for quartered space. I want to wake up in the morning, go sit on the porch, watch the mist rise from the ground and scowl at the squirrels raiding the garden I put in with no one else around. In those immortal words "I vant to be left alone."

I want this...

http://www.montecook.com/images/Wizards_tower275.jpg (broken link)

I want to be able to sit in my own damn tower, with only my candles and my ambient music. I want 10,000 square feet of space to run around with in a robe covered in sigils while chanting AS LOUD AS I WANT into the night. I don't want some apartment where other people will notice if I set a huge bonfire on midsummer's night and a place to have a MASSIVE state-of-the-lost-art-alchemical lab and build my own stone megalith in the back. But guess what?....we don't always get what we want.

Why don't I have these things?...because I can't afford them. It's the free-market and if you don't like the free-market, move to Cuba and shut-up. You can "resist", but unless you have the money, as the borg say...




I will have to be content with a closet size lab/focus room and three-times a year trip to the mountains to be alone with my loud chants because I don't have a million dollars to build my tower, and most Americans in the future will have to be content with living in satellite cities and towns instead of the 'burbs because they will not be able to afford it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2008, 10:29 AM
 
19,084 posts, read 20,640,162 times
Reputation: 8353
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Why don't you see what a brown-stone in NYC cost, and you'll be suprised. Compare that to the cost of a ugle McMansion in Jersey, and guess what? The McMansion is still allot cheaper. Like I said, these changes will take place over a decade or two. The Suburbian sociological and ecological nightmere took decades of free-market natural law to come to fruition, and that same free-market natural law will take decades to get rid of it.
You be surprise the amount of people who argue that all people in suburbs should live in the city... imagine those brownstones tripling in cost at the very least... I think the same people would rather the people in suburbs move to live in a studio apartment in the city and pay the same in mortgage... how nice of them isn't it..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2008, 10:37 AM
 
16,092 posts, read 37,229,544 times
Reputation: 6280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChunkyMonkey View Post
Just being a tourist in Europe will not show you real European life. The development patterns are a lot smarter than American ones. It is not all city with no suburbs. Europeans also live in suburbs. One huge difference is that it is not built with American zoning rules with a huge area of simply residential. You actually have a mixed with shops, small grocery stores within 5-10 minute walking distance even in the suburbs. Everything is walkable. It is much denser in terms of houses not having huge front yards, which is just for show. Also, houses tend to be smaller. There are bike paths everywhere so that it allows one to cycle. Gas is extremely expensive so the cars are few and far between. So, it is more pleasant to cycle or walk around.

Those who want big cars, big houses and big yards will just have to pay for that privilege.
Yeah and we all know what happens to those who live in castles - they have to open a gift shop, take in boarders/vacationing guests and have tours to afford to keep them in the family.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2008, 10:38 AM
 
Location: America
6,987 posts, read 15,758,353 times
Reputation: 2073
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Why don't you see what a brown-stone in NYC cost, and you'll be suprised. Compare that to the cost of a ugle McMansion in Jersey, and guess what? The McMansion is still allot cheaper. Like I said, these changes will take place over a decade or two. The Suburbian sociological and ecological nightmere took decades of free-market natural law to come to fruition, and that same free-market natural law will take decades to get rid of it.





By all means, do so. I (unlike Chairmen Bush) believe in a free-market. I also understand that the free-market changes the way people live, including saying good-buy to the suburbs for most people. There will be some with money living in the 'burbs (in those awful gated communities, no doubt) but others, the majority, will kiss the 'burbs a not-so-fond adios.

As for safety, if you carry a gun, you're safe anywhere almost, as NOWHERE is truly safe... Gang Membership Grows In Middle-Class Suburbs - New York Times
On the Brownstones in NYC thing. Prices are coming down. In queens alone prices have fallen by 15% so far. Not sure about the other boroughs. So I agree, time will sort all this out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2008, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,005,166 times
Reputation: 553
I think the spoke and wheel is a pretty idealistic model, and over time has worked well in some areas, like New York, Chicago, Boston, etc. but it didn't work as well in others like LA, Phoenix, Albuquerque, Dallas/Ft. worth, etc. because of building codes (earthquake prevention?) and the type of industries in the area.

Couldn't businesses build offices and work sites by the suburban areas too? In Los Angeles there is more than one down town which provides office related work - Burbank, West LA, downtown LA, Downtown Long Beach, Downtown Newport, Anaheim's platinum triangle, etc.

If you go up to Seattle, you'll see rapid expansion of Bellevue and skyscrapers being built which is by the "suburbs". In the Inland Empire in CA where there was the major expansion of suburban households, Ontario looks to be the next growing Downtown location.

Businesses should move to where things are more affordable for their constituents, whether it be lower cost leasing space, affordable housing for the workers, or better access to transportation routes. Land costs and development costs in urban areas are far more expensive than in the suburban areas. Not to mention the load on utilities and infrastructure.

Furthermore, it largely depends on the types of industries servicing the area. Not everybody works in offices. Therefore since Los Angeles has one of the largest ports many warehouses and logistic centers have grown out and has spread across the landscape. These same warehouses are in the process of being used as power-plants as solar panels get outfitted onto the roofs. Isn't it more "sustainable" to live by the power source? versus having miles of power lines ship power to you?

Utilities Leasing Rooftops for Solar Power Generation

I agree that engenuity and innovation will keep the sub-urban lifestyle alive and affordable. True, there will be more mixed-use commercial/industrial/agricultural laid in there within residential and the true suburbias out in areas that don't have job centers close by will shrink (unless of course businesses and job centers move out over there). Overall though, I don't think suburbia will disappear - it'll just change, shift, and adapt. The rich will just have a suburban retreat and an urban loft. Urban areas will have a major class war... as the rich push out the poor.

-chuck22b

Last edited by chuck22b; 06-27-2008 at 11:33 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2008, 11:46 AM
 
655 posts, read 756,960 times
Reputation: 240
Another typical day:

Stock market down...........................................aga in
Oil up................................................ .............again
More downgrades of fortune 500 companies...........again
Percentage of home repos rises............................again
more signs major US banks on the brink of failure.....again

Dow 7000 here we come.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-27-2008, 12:00 PM
 
9,638 posts, read 24,363,106 times
Reputation: 5304
If you go up to Seattle, you'll see rapid expansion of Bellevue and skyscrapers being built which is by the "suburbs"

Kind of. When I think of suburbs I think of places where people live and commute to cities for employment, and Bellevue was that way for a long time, but now it's a real city in it's own right, and plenty of people do the reverse commute from Seattle into Bellevue.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top