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Old 07-01-2008, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Boise, ID
1,356 posts, read 5,592,974 times
Reputation: 909

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
I can catch that one, if you will. The various "greedy" corporations tend to be against free markets. Often criminally so. In the case of energy and medical/pharmco they even pay to change the laws to get a greater chance to screw US.

Open and free markets would destroy many US corporations -- especially those in energy. For the sake of the country and people, I would just as soon replace the large utility companies with small independent producers.
I agree with you. Given the chance "greedy" corporations would monopolize and destroy competition. That's why I support regulations to ensure competition, as did Adam Smith.

I also agree that government can be bought to a certain extent. I would add that it not only happens with businesses but with labor unions and environmental groups too. It happens at every point along the political spectrum.

My point was that if oil companies went out of business then who would explore for oil, pump the oil, refine the oil, and deliver and sell the gas?

To bring it back to the original intent of the thread it's great to see individuals doing things to become more self-sufficient. I am excited to see the time when solar and wind are commonly used by households to produce their own energy.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:08 AM
 
893 posts, read 502,144 times
Reputation: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by findingmesomeday View Post
I had the same thought but was going to offer $2.00/gal!
I didn't want to be too cheap!
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:16 AM
 
4,711 posts, read 11,179,453 times
Reputation: 3778
How is making your own ethanol going to help much? I don't know much about alternative fuels, but isn't 15% the max amount of ethanol you can mix with your gasoline and run in a conventional gas engine?
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:41 AM
 
5,090 posts, read 10,044,464 times
Reputation: 3961
Quote:
Originally Posted by car54 View Post
How is making your own ethanol going to help much? I don't know much about alternative fuels, but isn't 15% the max amount of ethanol you can mix with your gasoline and run in a conventional gas engine?
There is a question of running it versus running it optimally.

Depending on fuel injection v. carb and ambient temp, you can run an engine on 100% ethanol.

In general, to use alcohol, in a conventional engine, you advance the timing due to the higher octane, and shift towards a higher fuel to air ratio due to the lower energy content.

The flex-fuel vehicles shift the mixture and timing automatically by using the oxygen sensor to determine the fuel, and are built to handle up to 85% ethanol (E85).

The cheapest path out with a conventional gas engine is a carburator with a washer in the throat (like a choke) or a manual choke, and advance the timing by hand.

The optimized path to run alcohol (methanol or ethanol) in an ICE (internal combustion engine) is to use high compression (like a race car) on straight alcohol. That can out-perform a gasoline ICE running on gasoline.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 52,823,640 times
Reputation: 24677
A ICE running ethanol or methanol can produce more power for a given displacement but will deliver much lower energy per unit fuel because the alcohols just do not have as much heat content as mid range hydrocarbons. This is why I suggested vegie oils combusted in a Diesel engine. They use longer chain hydrocarbons and a very much higher compression ratio to deliver much more energy per unit volume of fuel.

Besides veggie oil is a lot less volatile and prone to explosion than raw ethanol. I suggest looking at a text on distillery safety and fire control before I would have much more than a couple of gallons of 150 proof ethanol sitting around my shop. I would never have this much in my house.

Last edited by GregW; 07-01-2008 at 11:00 AM.. Reason: added line of text
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:16 AM
 
48,509 posts, read 86,173,019 times
Reputation: 18105
Hope you do better than the methnol industry which is doing poorly even when subsidised.s It take alot of energy to make the product it seems .Personally I'd go biofuel/ Good luck
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:09 PM
 
19,098 posts, read 20,668,871 times
Reputation: 8384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
How can you say you believe in the free market but then blame the "greedy" companies? That's what companies are. They are predictably greedy. That's why we need basic regulations to protect us from pollution and ensure competition. But if the companies are setting the price then why not set it higher and make even more money? Because the market won't bear a higher price yet? Sounds like the companies are not arbitrarily setting prices after all. The prices are set according to the market.
We don't have a "free" market, we have a "managed" market and companies are using that to create their semi-monopolies. The use the government to create rules and regulations and redirect money so that it kills their competition. Is there really a reason we haven't moved beyond oil since the 1970's?? The greedy companies are anti-free market because the free market brings only one thing for them... competition and they can't get rich if they have to compete. Some regulations "are" necessary but not regulations that kills the competition which happens to be 99% of the regulations out there (okay, slight exaggeration). The companies can set whatever price they want to (look at gasoline prices) and blame scapegoats (speculators)... why don't they raise their prices to absurd levels? Cause then consumption would go down and they lose more money (unless you have a product that is always in high demand). The diamond industry is doing well on an otherwise "worthless" product to consumers. The market does NOTHING to set prices, if you invest every dime you had in Ford, does that mean that Ford cars should be more expensive? No, Ford determines how much the car is worth regardless of what you want. But they can raise prices and blame you for it. The manufacturer is the one that sets prices. So it is FORD'S choice to do that, NOT the market.... Ford could of easily said, we will keep the price which means all you investors and speculators will not profit as much (nor will Ford). What happens? They raise their prices (and make lots of money) and blame speculators... The people WHO SELL the product are the ones who CONTROL the price... If I have corn and I sell it at $10 and there is a huge demand for it and people are giving me money to make more corn to sell... I have the RIGHT to sell corn at whatever price I want to... NOT the investors or speculators... I can blame them for the increase but the price increases rests solely on the manufacturer and NOBODY else...

"regulations to ensure competition"... I don't know if you know this... that is an oxymoron... you want to ensure competition, less regulation ON competition is what is needed.. Too bad Big Business owns the Republican and Democrats, so it ain't going to happen...

Quote:
And do you really want oil and utility companies to go out of business? That is just an ignorant statement.
Do I want them to go out of business? Yes... I am sure the people who made buggy whips when horse-drawn carriages were trotting about didn't want to go out of business... they are an antiquated model that has pass its prime... I am sure people would rather we used feathers and an ink bottle to write instead of the pens we use now or using sundials instead of a clock.... its the evolution of energy.. if you think the future of energy is rely on some other company in the future... you are ignorant..

What happens when oil companies don't do it? Then someone who wants to make money will do it... which means... just about EVERYBODY..
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Obama playing field
716 posts, read 1,929,151 times
Reputation: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
I can catch that one, if you will. The various "greedy" corporations tend to be against free markets. Often criminally so. In the case of energy and medical/pharmco they even pay to change the laws to get a greater chance to screw US.

Open and free markets would destroy many US corporations -- especially those in energy. For the sake of the country and people, I would just as soon replace the large utility companies with small independent producers.
Great points as well as evilnewbie's. I am not going to play the fool so that the BS can linger. If the cartels collapses tomorrow, there will be a long line of people who would want to jump in BUT would do so with caution, considering the downfall that just happened. A bit of pain now for long term prosperity is not too bitter pill to swallow. A vote for "Change" is in order, the sooner the better we'll all be.
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:54 PM
 
3,283 posts, read 4,757,208 times
Reputation: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niners fan View Post
I agree with you. Given the chance "greedy" corporations would monopolize and destroy competition. That's why I support regulations to ensure competition, as did Adam Smith.

I also agree that government can be bought to a certain extent. I would add that it not only happens with businesses but with labor unions and environmental groups too. It happens at every point along the political spectrum.

My point was that if oil companies went out of business then who would explore for oil, pump the oil, refine the oil, and deliver and sell the gas?

To bring it back to the original intent of the thread it's great to see individuals doing things to become more self-sufficient. I am excited to see the time when solar and wind are commonly used by households to produce their own energy.

regulations kill competition. they are designed to make everyone believe they they aid competition but as they are often costly, time consuming and labour/ energy intensive, only the big guys can afford compliance. the reason some don't believe the free market works is because we believe that the current shortcomings in the markets are the result of zero regulation. it couldn't be further from the truth
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Old 07-01-2008, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 24,267,347 times
Reputation: 4927
Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel: Alcohol as an Engine Fuel


Alcohol works, but the process to make it requires a cheap feedstock. I for one am going to gravitate towards algae/diesel.
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