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View Poll Results: Yey or Nay on the Housing Bill?
Yey 8 13.79%
Nay 50 86.21%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-23-2008, 06:12 PM
 
19,114 posts, read 20,689,920 times
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Yeah, it is a done deal... Big Business/Big Government 1 Trillion... Taxpayers 0 .... when taxpayers have to compete against Big Business in bed with Big Government we will always lose... separate Big Business and Big Government and taxpayers will have a chance to win.... that's never going to happen unless people stop getting bribed with entitlements and handouts... yeah, its not looking good..
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,933 posts, read 6,979,888 times
Reputation: 5506
Ron Paul on the housing bill. The bailout doesn't concern me as much as the IRS monitoring all credit card transactions. Orwellian isn't it? Might be time to start using cash for all purchases.

Congressman Ron Paul
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,008,453 times
Reputation: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
Yeah, it is a done deal... Big Business/Big Government 1 Trillion... Taxpayers 0 .... when taxpayers have to compete against Big Business in bed with Big Government we will always lose... separate Big Business and Big Government and taxpayers will have a chance to win.... that's never going to happen unless people stop getting bribed with entitlements and handouts... yeah, its not looking good..
Not sure where your getting the $1 trillion from... from what I've seen it'll be a possible $25 billion to $100 billion for the bail out for Fannie and Freddie... and an expansion of FHA of $300 billion for loans (which the loan write downs are being absorbed by lenders). If nothing were to be done, then there would be a $1 trillion loss to the economy:

"In the interim, the negative wealth effect of declining home values and increase in "underwater" mortgages will lead to more Americans walking away from their homes. Such "jingle mail" threatens to ultimately cost $1 trillion in credit losses, wiping out 75% of the capital of U.S. financial institutions, Roubini warns."

Most States/cities already have affordable housing statutes. So, eventually these properties might go to the cities and States anyways. California has a huge problem with not having enough affordable housing units, and this bill will definitely help address that.

"In 2000, 465,340 families were on waiting lists for public housing and rental subsidies in 20 local jurisdictions; only about 130,000 families now live in existing public housing or receive federal tenant-based subsidies in these same 20 jurisdictions. At the rate of two children in each family waiting for housing, almost a million children are on California’s housing waiting lists.......Since 1996, California has lost more than 29,000 affordable units due to owners electing to opt-out of subsidy contracts and prepay loans. The risk of owners converting units with subsidized rents to market-rate units is greatest in the State’s highest cost rental markets and is both immediate and expected to continue beyond 2010. In California, the number of federally-assisted units approximates 150,000. California’s experience with market-rate conversion of the older, assisted stock suggests that unless new incentives are created to retain Section 8 assistance, 15 to 20 percent of owners of Section 8 inventory are likely to opt-out and terminate their relationship with HUD."
http://www.hcd.ca.gov/hpd/hc061908.pdf (broken link)

I'm sure California isn't the only State that has trouble providing affordable housing.

This country is highly divided between the rich and the middle to poor. If you had a pure capitalist society with zero socialist programs your bound to face issues between the rich and the poor. The pure capitalists want cheap wages, infinite production hours, with zero compensation. How is the low wage earner suppose to work without government support when wages are pretty much stalled and benefits tossed out the door? Go figure?... I guess the pure capitalists prefer revolutions and riots over government programs and intervention.

-chuck22b
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:42 PM
 
19,114 posts, read 20,689,920 times
Reputation: 8400
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck22b View Post
Not sure where your getting the $1 trillion from... from what I've seen it'll be a possible $25 billion to $100 billion for the bail out for Fannie and Freddie... and an expansion of FHA of $300 billion for loans (which the loan write downs are being absorbed by lenders). If nothing were to be done, then there would be a $1 trillion loss to the economy:

"In the interim, the negative wealth effect of declining home values and increase in "underwater" mortgages will lead to more Americans walking away from their homes. Such "jingle mail" threatens to ultimately cost $1 trillion in credit losses, wiping out 75% of the capital of U.S. financial institutions, Roubini warns."

Most States/cities already have affordable housing statutes. So, eventually these properties might go to the cities and States anyways. California has a huge problem with not having enough affordable housing units, and this bill will definitely help address that.

"In 2000, 465,340 families were on waiting lists for public housing and rental subsidies in 20 local jurisdictions; only about 130,000 families now live in existing public housing or receive federal tenant-based subsidies in these same 20 jurisdictions. At the rate of two children in each family waiting for housing, almost a million children are on California’s housing waiting lists.......Since 1996, California has lost more than 29,000 affordable units due to owners electing to opt-out of subsidy contracts and prepay loans. The risk of owners converting units with subsidized rents to market-rate units is greatest in the State’s highest cost rental markets and is both immediate and expected to continue beyond 2010. In California, the number of federally-assisted units approximates 150,000. California’s experience with market-rate conversion of the older, assisted stock suggests that unless new incentives are created to retain Section 8 assistance, 15 to 20 percent of owners of Section 8 inventory are likely to opt-out and terminate their relationship with HUD."
http://www.hcd.ca.gov/hpd/hc061908.pdf (broken link)

I'm sure California isn't the only State that has trouble providing affordable housing.

This country is highly divided between the rich and the middle to poor. If you had a pure capitalist society with zero socialist programs your bound to face issues between the rich and the poor. The pure capitalists want cheap wages, infinite production hours, with zero compensation. How is the low wage earner suppose to work without government support when wages are pretty much stalled and benefits tossed out the door? Go figure?... I guess the pure capitalists prefer revolutions and riots over government programs and intervention.

-chuck22b
Actually that 1 Trillion didn't have a $ in front of it... I was referring to points... like a football game where the other side has 1 Trillion points and the opposing side zero points... I am saying that taxpayers actually lose and lose badly when pitted against Big Business in collusion with Big Government... hopefully that's clearer...
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Old 07-23-2008, 07:02 PM
 
2,197 posts, read 6,819,918 times
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Perhaps people resent socialistic entitlement programs and subsidized housing because they are widely and shamelessly abused-- just like Option ARMs and Alt-A programs.

Revolt? Interesting concept. Someday, people are going to get fed up with subsidizing others' poor choices and just stop paying taxes. Wonder how the government would regulate a mass taxpayer revolt? The Boston Tea Party was all about high and unfair taxes, after all. And look where that led.
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Old 07-23-2008, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,008,453 times
Reputation: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodbyehollywood View Post
Perhaps people resent socialistic entitlement programs and subsidized housing because they are widely and shamelessly abused-- just like Option ARMs and Alt-A programs.

Revolt? Interesting concept. Someday, people are going to get fed up with subsidizing others' poor choices and just stop paying taxes. Wonder how the government would regulate a mass taxpayer revolt? The Boston Tea Party was all about high and unfair taxes, after all. And look where that led.
We actually pay some of the lowest taxes amongst the nations of the world. I guess there aren't really any options out there with a relative standard of living that pays as little taxes as we do. I guess you can move to Mexico, but I don't think the quality of life would be comparable.



How do US taxes compare internationally?
Think your taxes are bad? - MSN Money (http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P148855.asp - broken link)

-chuck22b
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:03 PM
 
2,197 posts, read 6,819,918 times
Reputation: 1687
I don't think people mind paying taxes so much as minding how their taxes are being spent (or squandered, as the case may be). It just seems to me that a highly unpopular war coupled with a highly unpopular bailout is abnormally divisive. Between a declining economy and rising inflation, the Haves have less and money only goes so far-- even $25B.

We can't have it all. Fix the health care crisis, help the homeless, save social security, repair our aging infrastructure, see that every child receives a good education and our elders have a safe place to live and food to eat... or subsidize housing for homeowners who willfully made a poor choice for which they and their lenders should bear responsibility? Well, I vote for health care, social security, education and aiding the needy among our country's aging population over bailing out the victims of their own ignorance, arrogance and greed. (Yes, some homeowners are victims of misfortune, but they are the exception and not the majority, and again, their lenders should offer assistance on a case-by-case basis.)

But you'd be surprised how many people are retiring to Mexico. Not me, but I know several people who are buying properties abroad, in sunny countries with more reasonable real estate.
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:00 PM
 
Location: NY
1,416 posts, read 5,120,876 times
Reputation: 592
I've been trying to research this so-called First Home Homebuyer Tax Credit/Refund but there don't seem to be many real details on it. One site reports it like this: "The bill includes a tax refund for first-time home buyers worth up to 10% of a home's purchase price but no more than $7,500. The refund, however, serves more as an interest-free loan, since it would have to be paid back over 15 years in equal installments. It would be reduced gradually for single filers with adjusted gross incomes above $75,000 and for joint filers with AGIs over $150,000. " If that's true, it's even less useful IMO. Where we live, $7500 probably won't even cover the usual closing costs (which average around $10,000 on an average house and mortgage). The mortgage recording tax alone (state + county) on a 250K mortgage (average home prices here are around 500K) is over $5000.
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:39 AM
 
3,853 posts, read 11,860,265 times
Reputation: 2521
nay - the people holding USDs are going to end up paying in the form of inflation. Diversify out of the dollar to protect yourself folks!
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:56 AM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
7,480 posts, read 11,255,708 times
Reputation: 7070
In a rigged monetary system, the US has allocated significant resources to inefficient (and ass-ugly, I may add) housing, and inefficient motor vehicles on top of that, at a time when the energy paradigm is changing.

In a just world, the people who misallocated these resources - from the legislators and financiers to the final consumers - should be herded together, made to live in spartan barracks, and go to work everyday in basic manufacturing, among the things that this country actually needs right now, not bailouts for pseudo luxury housing for debt-and-welfare junkies.

Now, there may be a case for the allocation of massive resources to basic education.

But even the psuedo-intellectual, pseudo-socialists need a mass of debt-and-welfare junkies through which they can justify themselves and whom they can pander to.

Last edited by bale002; 07-24-2008 at 02:07 AM..
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