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Old 07-31-2008, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,059,017 times
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Some people love the "free" market and laissez faire principals. But are free markets really that great? With free markets we had huge monopolies grow during the Rockefeller years with Big Oil, Big Steel, Big Textile, etc. dominating the scene. During the past decades we had "free" markets emerge in new markets (telecoms, internet, finance, energy, tech) and the emergence of the Enrons, Tycos, World Coms, Anderson, and more recently Ameriquest, Country Wide, New Century scams. Should businesses and corporations have free reign? Or should their be government oversight?

According to the polls from World Public Opinion, most people agree that a free market is the best market... BUT, most people also agree that corporations have too much influence on government and need more regulation... So, what gives people? Seems like there's an oxymoron here (Free Markets / More Government Regulation). Can "Free" markets really govern themselves? or is the lure of expanding profits and greed truly overwhelming... and there is a necessity for third party intervention? Also, at what extent do ethics come into play... different countries would have different values of what's "fair" and "free" (ie intellectual property rights, subsidies, tax breaks, etc.).




20 Nation Poll Finds Strong Global Consensus: Support for Free Market System, But also More Regulation of Large Companies - World Public Opinion

-chuck22b

Last edited by chuck22b; 07-31-2008 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
209 posts, read 556,337 times
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I believe we should have most things free with regulation so people are not exploited but certain industries need to be either in the public sector or highly regulated. Perfect example is insurance, you can't tell me your giving people their peace of mind by purchasing insurance and also be a for profit because that will give you less coverage if you can to save a buck to increase profits. Same goes for health care, these companies say they work for the public good but also put profits before the same they say they are helping, this is an area where they need to be regulated to the point where profit is not the first objective or it should be run by the government and any profits made will go into the general fund to pay our national bills.


.02
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Old 07-31-2008, 10:17 PM
 
20,194 posts, read 21,566,506 times
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Nobody advocates a total free market environment because we need "some" regulations...keyword is "some"... right now, we have too much regulation that it hinders a competing environment... you listed a lot of failures above but you failed to mention how a lot of these "companies" are in collusion with the government... so instead of separating the two, you want to combine them and make them stronger? Thats like asking the mob to merge with the government and "hopefully" it will turn out well... The problem is that people keep thinking that we "need" to socialize everything (because they only think about what is cheaper for them instead of what works best).. you want government back health insurance? Sure, make people choose between different health plans and pay depending on the plan, instead of making the wealthy pay for basically "everything"... that is what I call "class envy"... you don't make certain groups pay more for groceries do you?
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,059,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
Nobody advocates a total free market environment because we need "some" regulations...keyword is "some"... right now, we have too much regulation that it hinders a competing environment... you listed a lot of failures above but you failed to mention how a lot of these "companies" are in collusion with the government... so instead of separating the two, you want to combine them and make them stronger? Thats like asking the mob to merge with the government and "hopefully" it will turn out well... The problem is that people keep thinking that we "need" to socialize everything (because they only think about what is cheaper for them instead of what works best).. you want government back health insurance? Sure, make people choose between different health plans and pay depending on the plan, instead of making the wealthy pay for basically "everything"... that is what I call "class envy"... you don't make certain groups pay more for groceries do you?
Doesn't seem like giving corporations/ free enterprise too much wiggle room has helped society or the economy much lately.

Maybe if we oust some people out of government positions, and put some new blood into it there would be less collusion. One can only hope that the American public will choose better champions to represent them. Sadly, we are usually our own worst enemy, voting without researching our candidates and following those with the best "image".

I don't think the government is really that bad.... if ran properly. Most of the government is ran pretty transparently. They have a ton of oversight and are required to post a lot of information "publicly". If there is government corruption, it is our own fault as "citizens" not addressing them or putting them there in there in the first place.

If government can be rinsed and cleaned with public oversight, then why can't they be there to regulate companies?

It's when government doesn't have public oversight when collusion happens. Or if their is an apathetic public.

-chuck22b
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Old 08-01-2008, 04:02 PM
 
Location: America
6,993 posts, read 16,045,840 times
Reputation: 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck22b View Post
Some people love the "free" market and laissez faire principals. But are free markets really that great? With free markets we had huge monopolies grow during the Rockefeller years with Big Oil, Big Steel, Big Textile, etc. dominating the scene. During the past decades we had "free" markets emerge in new markets (telecoms, internet, finance, energy, tech) and the emergence of the Enrons, Tycos, World Coms, Anderson, and more recently Ameriquest, Country Wide, New Century scams. Should businesses and corporations have free reign? Or should their be government oversight?

According to the polls from World Public Opinion, most people agree that a free market is the best market... BUT, most people also agree that corporations have too much influence on government and need more regulation... So, what gives people? Seems like there's an oxymoron here (Free Markets / More Government Regulation). Can "Free" markets really govern themselves? or is the lure of expanding profits and greed truly overwhelming... and there is a necessity for third party intervention? Also, at what extent do ethics come into play... different countries would have different values of what's "fair" and "free" (ie intellectual property rights, subsidies, tax breaks, etc.).




20 Nation Poll Finds Strong Global Consensus: Support for Free Market System, But also More Regulation of Large Companies - World Public Opinion

-chuck22b
My opinion is that laissez faire/capitalism is a savage undertaking. Corporations are entities in and of themselves. These are beings that lack compassion, soul, and emotion. Their only purpose is to "get money" by any means necessary. So, either people have to be at peace with the fact a company will screw any and all things over to meet its end goal or they have to agree to regulate these entities. See, you can't have it both ways, you say you like free and open markets with out regulation, then you get mad when corporations urinate in our water, fart in our air and bankrupt our friends. So which is it, do people want to let these things run buck wild or do they want to tame them.

I personaly prefer governments civilize these savage beast; that is corporations. But then again, I also believe people should be treated humanly and with compassion *shrugs*
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Old 08-01-2008, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,068 posts, read 76,830,155 times
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Free markets benefit corporations. Regulations hinder the corporations from making the most money so they are "free" to go off to another country that has little or no regulations and welcome them with open arms. That's just the way it is and how it has worked out. The US government cannot control what goes on in another country; we can publicize it and give the companies "bad press" but the US can't really fix it.

We as consumers are free to buy their goods or not.

I'm all for fair trade, but free trade has not worked out the way it was fed to us.
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Cary, NC
1,036 posts, read 3,768,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
My opinion is that laissez faire/capitalism is a savage undertaking. Corporations are entities in and of themselves. These are beings that lack compassion, soul, and emotion. Their only purpose is to "get money" by any means necessary. So, either people have to be at peace with the fact a company will screw any and all things over to meet its end goal or they have to agree to regulate these entities. See, you can't have it both ways, you say you like free and open markets with out regulation, then you get mad when corporations urinate in our water, fart in our air and bankrupt our friends. So which is it, do people want to let these things run buck wild or do they want to tame them.

I personaly prefer governments civilize these savage beast; that is corporations. But then again, I also believe people should be treated humanly and with compassion *shrugs*

So the government is BETTER than corporations? Isnt the government also an entity in an of itself that cares only about power and money? It rains down some aid on us to get some votes, but other than pandering and buying votes how often does the government really help?

We tried regulation of the airlines, utilities and other businesses. The government has social security, medicaire and other programs... are those run with humanity and compassion or any better than many private industries?

The government and private industries might have different goals, but neither of them is really to "help people", although it does sound nice in an election ad. Companies and the government are only as good as the people that work in them. They can be great sources of good or evil, but its the people that determine that, not some "enitity" that the companies become.
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,059,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcarrillo View Post
So the government is BETTER than corporations? Isnt the government also an entity in an of itself that cares only about power and money? It rains down some aid on us to get some votes, but other than pandering and buying votes how often does the government really help?

We tried regulation of the airlines, utilities and other businesses. The government has social security, medicaire and other programs... are those run with humanity and compassion or any better than many private industries?

The government and private industries might have different goals, but neither of them is really to "help people", although it does sound nice in an election ad. Companies and the government are only as good as the people that work in them. They can be great sources of good or evil, but its the people that determine that, not some "enitity" that the companies become.
I'm not quite sure what your trying to say about the government. I don't think it's a "for profit" organization. If it was, they would charge people more for everything and the "rich" would have more services than the poor. From what I can see, the "poor" actually get more services from the government than the rich... but the rich have more "influence" over policies. So, if the "government" was a money making machine... then they should be charging us taxes left and right and exploit their position (monopoly) as the sole entity that provides police, fire, transportation, etc. services.

Of course it's the people. People are at the heart of both all things good and evil. With corporations, in the most part we don't have any say of what kind of people go into the organization... and whether or not a corporation is "ethical" depends entirely on the upper management (I'm not saying all corporations are bad... but the bad ones are usually the ones that make it worst for the industry - same thing happens in society). At least with the government, the "public" in the most part chooses the leadership. If the government is corrupt.... only blame ourselves.

From what I can see of government regulations... basically this is how it goes...
1) A new industry or way to do things pops up (low to little government regulations)...
2) Few in the industry exploits loop holes for profit and greed (ie, unethical competitive advantage) and harms society...
3) Industry forms a trade group to try to regulate itself...
4) The trade group fails... and greed and profits rule again...
5) Society gets hurt...
6) Then the government gets involved for better or worse

If an industry was able to self govern... in the most part the government doesn't get involved... it costs tax payers money to get "involved"... and you know how cheap tax payers are

-chuck22b

Last edited by chuck22b; 08-01-2008 at 06:35 PM..
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Old 08-01-2008, 06:55 PM
 
Location: America
6,993 posts, read 16,045,840 times
Reputation: 2083
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcarrillo View Post
So the government is BETTER than corporations? Isnt the government also an entity in an of itself that cares only about power and money? It rains down some aid on us to get some votes, but other than pandering and buying votes how often does the government really help?

We tried regulation of the airlines, utilities and other businesses. The government has social security, medicaire and other programs... are those run with humanity and compassion or any better than many private industries?

The government and private industries might have different goals, but neither of them is really to "help people", although it does sound nice in an election ad. Companies and the government are only as good as the people that work in them. They can be great sources of good or evil, but its the people that determine that, not some "enitity" that the companies become.
The first thing you need to do is research what the definition of a corporation is. Then research the other terms used by chuck and myself such as laissez faire. Next you should look into democracy and what are its supposed principles. Then I think you will get what I am meaning
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Old 08-01-2008, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,059,017 times
Reputation: 555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
The first thing you need to do is research what the definition of a corporation is. Then research the other terms used by chuck and myself such as laissez faire. Next you should look into democracy and what are its supposed principles. Then I think you will get what I am meaning
I think rcarillo knows his stuff... and knows those principals... from another thread I think he said he has a Phd. I think his view is skewed because I think he is also a small/medium business owner.

I agree with him that small/medium businesses are at a disadvantage in terms of how much regulation is imposed on them vs. the costs to follow them. Sadly, it's the bad companies that made government induce regulations... but the rest of the good companies face the resulting backlash from society/government.

I think somehow government/society should support or encourage good corporate behavior. That is why... we have to shop smart when buying things... and vote in officials that aren't corrupt and supportive of fair competition between companies and reduced burden on smaller entities (or help with the burden of compliance).

-chuck22b
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