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Old 10-16-2008, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Georgia, on the Florida line, right above Tallahassee
10,474 posts, read 15,141,340 times
Reputation: 6389

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I see the point, Woof. But where do you want them to stop...and how would you accomplish your mission? You'd have to get a lot of people to cooperate for this change to occur.

http://www.uoregon.edu/~seta/caged3.jpg

And for no other reason than because I can...here's a link to a PETA protester sitting in a cage. An amazingly HOT PETA protester. (Somewhat SFW, that dress is pretty short.)
Photo from Getty Images by AFP/Getty Images - Daylife
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Old 10-16-2008, 04:37 PM
 
21,527 posts, read 64,428,750 times
Reputation: 42458
Thanks to CaseyB for removing the most antagonistic phrases from the thread. It is much easier and saner reading now.

Hobo, I raise my own meat chickens, have been getting my eggs from a neighbor with a large coop, and I have neighbors that are successful broiler farmers with giant barns. I become distressed when I see pop culture and PETA attacking the livelihood of my neighbors, and blurring facts to make a biased point in an attempt to influence others in a ground swell witch hunt.

I would MUCH rather be active now at the beginnings of such claims than sit back quietly and become upset when backyard chicken coops are outlawed and my neighbors forced out of business. When there is talk of putting honest hardworking people out of business, I tend to speak out. When freedoms are taken away in the name of PETA promoted agendas, I make no apologies for doing so.

I will say that keeping pigs, which have much more developed brains than chickens, in extremely restrictive cages does offend my sensibilities. However, there are things that people do to other people that I find much more offensive. The government sanctioned abuses such as waterboarding, the abuse the McCain went through in Vietnam, the kidnappings in Mexico, the genocide in Africa, and countless other ills all speak of offenses that need addressing immediately. Maybe congresscritters, religious extremists, and third world dictators need to be put in restrictive cages until they learn to have some humanity.

While we are talking about offending sensibilities, I wonder about all the dogs dressed in costume for Halloween and Christmas, the police dogs that live such a stressful life that they "burn-out" long before the end of a normal lifespan, "crated" pets in small apartments, and other more casual abuses of animal sensibilities. But then, outlawing pets is a couple of decades down the path that PETA is leading you, so you don't have to worry about having to be licensed and vetted and inspected before owning a pet... yet.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Georgia, on the Florida line, right above Tallahassee
10,474 posts, read 15,141,340 times
Reputation: 6389
I wonder if PETA is to pets as MADD is to drunk driving.

MADD isn't about drunk driving any more. It's about changing alcohol laws.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving stigmatizes light or moderate alcohol consumption, even when it isn't associated with either being underage or driving.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving: A Crash Course in MADD

http://jakking.typepad.com/photos/un...rized/madd.jpg

According to MADD, if I drink a beer in my yard, hop in my old truck, drive down to the fish pond and catch a catfish..then drive back home...I have committed a violent crime. To me, it's called "Saturday." To them, I'm trying to destroy all life as we know it. The lines of distinction become blurred.

Last edited by 70Ford; 10-16-2008 at 08:20 PM..
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:45 PM
 
662 posts, read 1,723,625 times
Reputation: 504
I buy cage-free eggs, and I don't have a lot of money. If other products were labeled 'cruelty-free' or something like that, I would probably buy that too, even if it cost extra. It would be hard to figure out how to do it, but maybe if the brand had a website people could visit, so people could see what they meant by 'cruelty free'.

I would buy it if the web-site convinced me, even if it cost extra.

I'm probably not alone, but not in the majority.
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Old 10-17-2008, 07:13 AM
 
3,490 posts, read 7,917,175 times
Reputation: 3966
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
Hobo, I raise my own meat chickens, have been getting my eggs from a neighbor with a large coop, and I have neighbors that are successful broiler farmers with giant barns. I become distressed when I see pop culture and PETA attacking the livelihood of my neighbors, and blurring facts to make a biased point in an attempt to influence others in a ground swell witch hunt.

I would MUCH rather be active now at the beginnings of such claims than sit back quietly and become upset when backyard chicken coops are outlawed and my neighbors forced out of business. When there is talk of putting honest hardworking people out of business, I tend to speak out. When freedoms are taken away in the name of PETA promoted agendas, I make no apologies for doing so.

I will say that keeping pigs, which have much more developed brains than chickens, in extremely restrictive cages does offend my sensibilities. However, there are things that people do to other people that I find much more offensive. The government sanctioned abuses such as waterboarding, the abuse the McCain went through in Vietnam, the kidnappings in Mexico, the genocide in Africa, and countless other ills all speak of offenses that need addressing immediately. Maybe congresscritters, religious extremists, and third world dictators need to be put in restrictive cages until they learn to have some humanity.

While we are talking about offending sensibilities, I wonder about all the dogs dressed in costume for Halloween and Christmas, the police dogs that live such a stressful life that they "burn-out" long before the end of a normal lifespan, "crated" pets in small apartments, and other more casual abuses of animal sensibilities. But then, outlawing pets is a couple of decades down the path that PETA is leading you, so you don't have to worry about having to be licensed and vetted and inspected before owning a pet... yet.
Eh, according to people who actually raise cage free eggs, the cost is much less than the factory farmers are claiming. In fact in the report I posted it says:

'The European Commission’s report in January concluded that the cost of switching to cage-free eggs could be less than one cent of a euro per egg, but the higher welfare standards could give EU producers a commercial advantage over non-EU competitors.

“There is clearly a growing market for animal welfare friendly products,” states the report. “Recent Eurobarometer surveys on consumer attitudes to animal welfare revealed that the majority of respondents would be willing to pay more for eggs sourced through animal welfare friendly production systems.”

So I don't buy the stuff about your poor neighbors being forced out of business, especially when a lot of people (when made aware of the issues) are willing to spend a bit extra to make sure that the things they consume do not come from an unnecessarily cruel environment.

I also don't really see how dressing up a pet for halloween or christmas falls into the category of cruelty. I really don't. I'm not into crating dogs either as it happens - that's another American phenomenon that I never saw in Europe. Nice for the dog to have a 'safe place', but not one in which it is trapped for hours on end. I am also against tail docking and declawing of cats, all of which are against the law in the UK and most of Europe.

I find your comment that it is Pop culture pushing for an end to the cruelty really very offensive, for the record. And let me be very clear that PETA is not leading me on a path to anywhere. I don't need PETA to know what is wrong and what is right. To me if you keep a bird, or a pig, or a cow in conditions that barely allow them to move, then that is cruel. Has nothing to do with 'pop culture' as you so condescendingly claim.

Not only is it cruel, but it is unnessecary. That's what is so foolish about this whole thing. We do it because that's the way we squeeze every last cent out of the animals, and frankly that is unacceptable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen59 View Post
I buy cage-free eggs, and I don't have a lot of money. If other products were labeled 'cruelty-free' or something like that, I would probably buy that too, even if it cost extra. It would be hard to figure out how to do it, but maybe if the brand had a website people could visit, so people could see what they meant by 'cruelty free'.

I would buy it if the web-site convinced me, even if it cost extra.

I'm probably not alone, but not in the majority.
Good for you, and you are definitely not alone. I think most people (sadly not some of the ones on this thread), just don't realize how bad it is. I think rasing awareness is key, and then most people don't want to support active cruelty.

The below is what happened in the UK when a campaign began to show consumers the conditions the animals were kept under. It sounds like the free range farmers simply are not able to keep up with the demand which should force some of the factory (battery in the UK) farmers to change the way they do their business, or go out of business if they fail to heed what the consumer is demanding. This is all based on education, and having the ability and willingness to change:

"In January 2008 Channel 4, a major British TV network, broadcast a series of food programmes with celebrity chefs Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall and Jamie Oliver launching a high-profile campaign to show the general public what battery cages and broiler sheds mean for the animals. At the same time the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) placed advertisements in national newspapers to create what appeared a coordinated campaign. The Independent, a major UK national newspaper, published secret footage from an intensive farm exposing the cruelty inflicted on broiler chickens.

The effects of this have been huge, and perhaps unpredicted.
Sales of free-range poultry shot up by 35 per cent in January 2008 compared with January 2007, while sales of factory-farmed chickens slumped by 7 per cent, according to a survey by the market research company TNS. The trend has continued throughout February as well.

Supermarkets shelves have been emptied of free-range birds, causing complaints from frustrated shoppers eager to embrace the movement away from factory farming.

The increase in free-range chickens sales would have been even higher if producers had been able to keep up with the demand.

“But the new national sales data suggests that shoppers' priorities have shifted dramatically. If the TNS data was extrapolated to the rest of the UK, it suggests sales of factory-farmed chickens dipped by 10 million, while shoppers bought 4.4 million more free-range chickens. Overall, chicken sales were down by 4.8 per cent, perhaps because many people, when faced with an absence of free-range chicken, simply bought no chicken” writes The Independent.

Sainsbury's supermarket poultry department agreed with the picture of roaring free-range sales: "Sales are up 50 per cent year on year so it means we are selling more free-range than we have ever sold. It's also fair to say sales would have been much greater if we had stock to meet demand."

Last edited by Hobokenkitchen; 10-17-2008 at 07:24 AM..
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Old 10-17-2008, 07:15 AM
 
3,490 posts, read 7,917,175 times
Reputation: 3966
Quote:
Originally Posted by 70Ford View Post
I wonder if PETA is to pets as MADD is to drunk driving.

MADD isn't about drunk driving any more. It's about changing alcohol laws.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving stigmatizes light or moderate alcohol consumption, even when it isn't associated with either being underage or driving.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving: A Crash Course in MADD

http://jakking.typepad.com/photos/un...rized/madd.jpg

According to MADD, if I drink a beer in my yard, hop in my old truck, drive down to the fish pond and catch a catfish..then drive back home...I have committed a violent crime. To me, it's called "Saturday." To them, I'm trying to destroy all life as we know it. The lines of distinction become blurred.
Agree with this. I am not a member of PETA and won't be while they continue to be so extreme that they actually end up harming their cause.
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Southwest Nebraska
1,297 posts, read 4,532,940 times
Reputation: 909
I heard on a radio talk show years ago when this lady called in and said nobody needs farmers anyway cause all you have to do if you want food is go to the grocery store.

She had no clue where the grocery store got the food in the first place.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:29 PM
 
Location: CA
830 posts, read 2,598,847 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
Anyone have any idea what a dozen organic eggs cost???
Yep, $2 a dozen from my neighbor who raises them in her yard and not crammed in cages. Cheaper than the factory farmed eggs available in the stores around here, that's for sure. No trucking pollution to deal with either. Yes, they're in a coop at night to protect them from coyotes. That doesn't mean they can't move and that they peck each other from the stress of being overcrowded.

I'm not concerned one iota with protecting the "poor factory farmer's" right to pack chickens in a cage to maximize profit. Factory farming is far too subsidized already, and I'm not sure why any true family farmer would be trying to protect that corrupt industry.

Frankly it amazes me to read so many posts from people who don't care and think it's ok to treat other creatures this way, no matter how stupid you deam them. It's a really disappointing look at humanity.

I say good for Oprah... she's got the influence and she's using it for an important issue that a lot of people don't even think about... showing them the side of the issue that's often fiercely protected by those making a profit from these operations.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:39 PM
 
Location: CA
830 posts, read 2,598,847 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
said nobody needs farmers anyway cause all you have to do if you want food is go to the grocery store.
That's true, unfortunately. Who needs a farmer when we've got corporation factory farms pumping out their heavily subsidized commodities... so much that we have to dump it cheap in other countries so that their farmers in turn cannot sell what they've produced. Even within the US, why do we need farmers in Maine when a Californian corporation can truck a load of tomatoes over there and dump it in a supermarket cheaper than the Maine farmer can sell his for?

Good old us, saving the world from hunger, while managing to perpetuate the idea that the food is coming from a picturesque farm with a red barn and cows milling around in the pasture.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:32 AM
 
3,490 posts, read 7,917,175 times
Reputation: 3966
Prop2 passed in CA by a significant margin. Fantastic!!
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