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Old 10-03-2011, 06:28 AM
 
455 posts, read 1,155,295 times
Reputation: 430

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
The cure to making, shipping and buying/selling too much crap in one direction is to . . . make, ship and buy/sell more crap in the other direction?

Only in an Econ Class that hopefully was a required credit and not anything anyone hoped to learn something from.

----------------------

China can build in and for China.

US can build in and for US.

Saves all that shipping back and forth.

How stupid have we truly become?
You have to realize that china/usa are entirely different in their resources, cost of labor, and other such assets. Economic theory states that people gain by being able to specialize in what they do best and trade for the rest. Cost of shipping is pretty cheap these days.

The primary point I am getting to is that the USA is a deficit nation. -600+ billion per year going out the door. We need to at least sell 600 billion worth of stuff to other people (that aren't Americans) and ideally we need to export more than import. That's how we become so wealthy in the first place. Selling crap made in america to other people.

Quote:
The cure to making, shipping and buying/selling too much crap in one direction is to . . . make, ship and buy/sell more crap in the other direction?
Yes, that's how it works. Or are you going to tell me that the USA with a -600 billion trade deficit is sustainable (over the long term)?
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Old 10-03-2011, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Near a river
16,042 posts, read 20,047,358 times
Reputation: 15719
Quote:
Originally Posted by a34dadsf View Post
Well, I sure hope everyone is enjoying their Chinese made products. Just keep it up everyone. Eventually it will be you who loses their job to imports.
And now, to add insult to injury, we have given the contract to Chinese contractors to rebuild our infrastructure here in the U.S.--with Chinese laborers. Bottom line always: cheapest way to go. As I've said, it's the "cutthroat global capitalism" era, and unfortunately and unbelievably it's us cutting our own throats.
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:37 AM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,330,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a34dadsf View Post
You have to realize that china/usa are entirely different in their resources, cost of labor, and other such assets. Economic theory states that people gain by being able to specialize in what they do best and trade for the rest. Cost of shipping is pretty cheap these days.
Understood. Look I went through the same Economic Theory nonsense classes in college, too. Made sense at the time, but with even acquiring a scrap of practical experience in the real world, I have come to understand it is total nonsense.

Don't believe me? When did we start into that nonsense? Late 70's, early 80's, right? When did we start sinking into trade debt? Same time.

You (and the rest of mis-educated) America are going to have to make a MAJOR mindset adjustment to understand that "theory" had/has a few holes (Really BIG Ones) in it.

Sorry, but have you went back and challenged the operating premise in your mind?

Quote:
The primary point I am getting to is that the USA is a deficit nation. -600+ billion per year going out the door. We need to at least sell 600 billion worth of stuff to other people (that aren't Americans) and ideally we need to export more than import. That's how we become so wealthy in the first place. Selling crap made in america to other people.
WHILE at least to some degree protecting and taking care of our OWN Market.

The Tariff is in the Constitution.

We used the Tariff to very good results for the first 200 years or so of our existence. Then some folks thought they were a little smarter. Has not turned out that way, huh?


Quote:
Yes, that's how it works. Or are you going to tell me that the USA with a -600 billion trade deficit is sustainable (over the long term)?
Look we agree it fails.

But just trying to do more and more and more of the same stupid trade and trade and trade (your prescription if I understand it?) is going to get us more and more and more debt.

Unless we can accept the Global Trade model is a failure for US.

We can do the math or cartoon versions of the failure analysis, if it would help?
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:28 PM
 
2,515 posts, read 1,818,779 times
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We need to be saving a lot more money with high savings comes more exports than imports.
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Old 10-03-2011, 03:09 PM
 
455 posts, read 1,155,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newenglandgirl View Post
And now, to add insult to injury, we have given the contract to Chinese contractors to rebuild our infrastructure here in the U.S.--with Chinese laborers. Bottom line always: cheapest way to go. As I've said, it's the "cutthroat global capitalism" era, and unfortunately and unbelievably it's us cutting our own throats.
Exactly. Everyone likes to go to wal-mart and buy the cheapest possible crap made. Then eventually it isn't the other guy who loses his job as a result but it is you who loses your job. No job is safe anymore. Sooner or later we will figure out how to automate it or import the services from abroad. One example being healthcare. Lots of people think healthcare is immune to outsourcing. It isn't. There is a huge industry growing called medical tourism. Literally, you get on a plane go to a foreign country get the operation done and return to the US.

Quote:
Don't believe me? When did we start into that nonsense? Late 70's, early 80's, right? When did we start sinking into trade debt? Same time.
what is, "that nonsense?"

Quote:
You (and the rest of mis-educated) America are going to have to make a MAJOR mindset adjustment to understand that "theory" had/has a few holes (Really BIG Ones) in it.
Would help if you stated what those holes were.

Quote:
We used the Tariff to very good results for the first 200 years or so of our existence. Then some folks thought they were a little smarter. Has not turned out that way, huh?
I advocate for import tariff, especially since we are trade deficit nation. Adjust the tariff based on trade surplus/deficit.

Quote:
But just trying to do more and more and more of the same stupid trade and trade and trade (your prescription if I understand it?) is going to get us more and more and more debt.
I don't understand how selling crap to foreigners is going to create debt. China has been selling us lots of crap and they seem to be doing pretty good these days.

Quote:
We need to be saving a lot more money with high savings comes more exports than imports.
Has to be more than that. We need investment in the states. That investment will create long-term jobs for us, especially if those investments are export oriented.
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:12 PM
 
Location: NJ
18,668 posts, read 18,079,192 times
Reputation: 7284
The problem goes beyond trade. We have become super efficient, to the point quite frankly, that were there no imports, we still would not need as many people to make things as we could ever consume. We're in a permanent decline, and only countries far from their maximum possible lifestyles such as China, will see any true improvement.

Last edited by bobtn; 10-03-2011 at 08:50 PM..
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:16 PM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,623,508 times
Reputation: 1590
The funny thing is honestly prices ain't that much lower if at all b/c they have labor in Asia. I mean its not like we can buy a new suit for $20, considering they pay people 10 cents a month or whatever. The fact is they simply pad profits and greed said **** Americans and Americans at home with jobs and lets go overseas to make MORE MONEY.

Seriously have you ever really shopped and looked at bills past and present. Moving to Asia hasn't really saved some huge amount of money. As a matter of fact a recent survey showed TARGET was cheaper than Wal-Mart.

We need America to take care of America and stop hating one another. Am I my brother's keeper?
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:33 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 2,701,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneOne View Post

Disaster will only occur if the government continues to print money, raise taxes and pay for inefficient services, not to mention subsidies to corporations or foreign military adventures.

No government interference might result in some serious short-term pain, but it would ensure much greater prosperity in the years ahead.
Were are therefore fooked....
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:31 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,625,449 times
Reputation: 5180
We have to look at what caused our economic decline to begin with, which was so called free trade policies.
Free trade policies allowed multi national corporations to offshore US jobs while simultaneously exploiting US consumer markets.
A very profitable policy for large corporations, but devastating for the American worker, and in turn the US economy.
With the elimination of the free trade policies that caused the economic problems to begin with, we can rebuild our manufacturing base and increase employment, which will begin to rebuild the housing market and the overall economy, can begin to recover.
Until we eliminate free trade, we will continue to seek parity with the rest of the world in our standard of living.
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:24 AM
 
5,409 posts, read 10,330,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a34dadsf View Post

what is, "that nonsense?"
You cannot keep track of the conversation because you have mixed three separate posts from different people together. Let me recap your position . ..

Quote:
Economic theory states that people gain by being able to specialize in what they do best and trade for the rest.
That is what I am calling nonsense. Truly, we all know the dogma, many of us have done business school and econ at the college level -- but somewhere along the line, if the results on the ground are not matching the theory, one has to become aware that the theory must have some flaws.

Quote:
Would help if you stated what those holes were.
Sure. At first start, when dealing with the real world and real people -- we are not dealing in theory.

Some of the aspects is many countries still operate on a model close to Mercantilism. Others fear and greed.

To try to operate on half-baked failing theory -- especially when it has now became abundantly clear is both Wrong and a Failure is utter foolishness. But on we go.

Quote:
I advocate for import tariff, especially since we are trade deficit nation. Adjust the tariff based on trade surplus/deficit.
100% Match on that. But the Free-Traders who have adopted the "Theory" are fully against ANY sort of Tariffs. Do you understand why?

Quote:
I don't understand how selling crap to foreigners is going to create debt. China has been selling us lots of crap and they seem to be doing pretty good these days.
Because it is not in anyone's advantage to be balanced. You seem to have forgotten you are dealing with human nature. Humans do not always behave according to the best ideals or theories.

So on we go, bs-ing US like the late-night-used-car advertisements where they claim they are losing money on every sale, but going to make up for in volume.

More, more, more = equals a bigger and deeper hole we are digging.

When you are in a hole, it is time to stop digging.

Quote:
Has to be more than that. We need investment in the states. That investment will create long-term jobs for us, especially if those investments are export oriented.
Investments! Yes! Investments!

Reminds me of the Bankers in Mary Poppins -- Railways Through Africa!


Mary Poppins Fundub Fidelity Fiduciary Bank (sung by me) - YouTube


Nope.

It requires -- STOP.

Trains do not run on bullsh1t and neither do functional economies.

Actually sit down and figure out what is wrong, does not work, what does work and chart a genuine long term path forward without idiot political slogans and half-assed theories substituting for actual knowledge and judgment.

And STOP the One Minute Manager -- Quick -- what is the Answer? The Answer! Did-not-do-my-homework-half-assed one-dimension "solutions."
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