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Old 12-12-2008, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,218,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Yeah this is more of the "I have a fancy degree so I should get paid a lot" mentality.
Yeah, what a dumb concept....work hard, spend a lot of time and money to get an education, and expect to earn a better living than someone who screws armrests in Chevys.

What are these arrogant, educated, fancy rich people going to come up with next?
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Keller, TX
5,670 posts, read 5,380,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Yeah this is more of the "I have a fancy degree so I should get paid a lot" mentality.
Didn't say a damned thing about money. You seem to want to grant factory work great moral superiority and equate scholastic achievement with parasitism and moral decay.

Yours is a bizarre mentality of "higher education is worthless and useless and maybe unethical since all it does is allow you to avoid being a worker making things in a factory."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
When I go into an office, I see a lot of paper pushers. I really don't know what they do, I ask and still don't really get it. Does it take that many people to do that? When I go into a factory, a development studio etc....I understand what is going on. Everyone seems to be productive... Just saying...
Yah, I see what you mean, as this would also be my four year old niece's take.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 3,561,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Yeah, what a dumb concept....work hard, spend a lot of time and money to get an education, and expect to earn a better living than someone who screws armrests in Chevys.
Yeah, basically it is a dumb concept. Economically its unsound. The market doesn't care how much time you spent in school, nor does it care how much you spent on education.

Pay is based on supply/demand in the labor market, not what people think they deserve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
What are these arrogant, educated, fancy rich people going to come up with next?
I don't know, lets hope the next thing is more rooted in reality.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,218,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Pay is based on supply/demand in the labor market, not what people think they deserve.
Something we can agree upon. You're absolutely correct in that statement, and if we take that and apply it to GM, Ford, and Chrysler, then you would have companies with products that aren't selling, who are nearing bankruptcy, and whose workers are not in high demand (since they are being laid off...or sent to Club Med...not sure which one).

Given your correct statement, wages and benefits should go down for UAW members, given the state of their companies and the market for their services.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 3,561,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
You seem to want to grant factory work great moral superiority and equate scholastic achievement with parasitism and moral decay.
No, rather I'm not particularly impressed by college degrees nor do I think that people that have a degree should be getting paid more for just having a degree. I'm not sure if its been tried, but I'm pretty sure a monkey could get a degree from many American universities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
Yours is a bizarre mentality of "higher education is worthless and useless and maybe unethical since all it does is allow you to avoid being a worker making things in a factory."
A factory is not the only place things get made, people doing research and development for example are just as much as part of the production cycle as those working the assembly line.

I never suggested high education is worthless.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Given your correct statement, wages and benefits should go down for UAW members, given the state of their companies and the market for their services.
And they will given time. Wages don't increase or decline over night. The current massive drop in auto sales is very recent...you can't expect the labor markets to re-price themselves within 2 months.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,218,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
...you can't expect the labor markets to re-price themselves within 2 months.
I don't. The issues with cost restructuring and wages, retiree pension/medical costs, and products that aren't selling aren't new. High fuel costs and the economy turning down have illuminated them and made them front burner issues.

Had the UAW been realistic, and had the "big 3" been more willing to deal with these issues before, we might not be in this situation now.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
603 posts, read 2,151,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
I might, just might have agreed with you if they had a good business model.
But they don't..Honda and Toyota here in the US did much better and have a better model. Honda and Toyota can take over and become "The Big Two" and would probably make a better go of it. I would rather loan money to companies that change with the times instead of trying to maintain the status quo at all costs and then turn to the government for a handout when they can't.
I don't agree with the big 3 auto bailout but I wanted to point something out about Honda/Toyota. Japan has been subsidizing those companies the whole time which has helped their success. Also, our free market has made it very easy for Japanese cars to be sold in the U.S. whereas their country does not accept exports. Yes, they have a good model, but they also had some other things working in their favor that we don't have.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,862 posts, read 15,218,406 times
Reputation: 3576
Quote:
Originally Posted by #Littledog View Post
Also, our free market has made it very easy for Japanese cars to be sold in the U.S. whereas their country does not accept exports.
That's true, but the reality is that GM and Ford have been doing very well in Europe and Asia. The problem is in North America, not in other parts of the world. One of the only reasons GM is still afloat is due to its Asian success. The Japanese companies make cars that Americans want and make them well.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 3,561,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
I don't. The issues with cost restructuring and wages, retiree pension/medical costs, and products that aren't selling aren't new. High fuel costs and the economy turning down have illuminated them and made them front burner issues.
Some issues aren't new and that is why they were dealing with them before the current crisis. Its simply dishonest to pretend as if the US auto makers haven't made any steps before the current crisis to improve the viability of their companies. They have done many things, Ford has worked the fastest.

Allowing the US auto makers to fail right now....is pretty much absurd. If they collapse the costs will be far greater. Only someone that is extremely ideological driven would do something despite it costing more just because of the principle of the matter.
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