U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-13-2008, 11:13 AM
 
48,509 posts, read 86,155,604 times
Reputation: 18105

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by f_m View Post
I'm wondering to what extent the subsidizing was done. I haven't seen details about it. The US government does provide money for various research projects to the US companies, over $2 billion so far on various projects like PNGV and Freedomcar.

The 15 billion that was going to be use in the senate vote was from a subsidity that was set aside for the big three for future car innovations.That was the deal reached by Bush and Pelosi on where the money came from.I can remember when lobbyist got teh governamnt to get japnese compnies to actaully self limit imports when so the big three could keep sales up ;I beleive during the Reagan administraiton.From what i saw all it did was raise prices of cars overall to the comsumer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-13-2008, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Eastern Missouri
3,046 posts, read 5,387,448 times
Reputation: 1386
Great post Dwatted Wabbit
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-13-2008, 11:38 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
944 posts, read 2,844,788 times
Reputation: 264
Right. Nobody is stating the obvious that these greedy companies have purposefully built products that self-destruct or otherwise fall apart at the seems at 60,000 miles (requiring constant service and parts replacement starting at that point). This was the American way (as opposed to the Japanese way), and the Big Three are just gonna have to eat it. Even if they are bailed out, who in their right mind will buy a piece of their crap? If people are ticked off that they are getting bailed out, you think they're going to run out and support them with MORE hard-earned dollars? My entire family drives Hondas, many of which make it to 100,000 miles on oil changes and tire replacement alone.

Hindsight2020: I buy your arguments, but by your logic of the college degree being the high school degree of the 21st century, must you not therefore conclude that those who hold only a high school diploma are the high school dropouts of the 21st century? If so, current college diploma earners may indeed expect to earn more (just as holders of high school diplomas in the 20th century could expect to earn more than high school dropouts).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-13-2008, 11:54 AM
f_m
 
2,289 posts, read 7,649,658 times
Reputation: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
The 15 billion that was going to be use in the senate vote was from a subsidity that was set aside for the big three for future car innovations.That was the deal reached by Bush and Pelosi on where the money came from.I can remember when lobbyist got teh governamnt to get japnese compnies to actaully self limit imports when so the big three could keep sales up ;I beleive during the Reagan administraiton.From what i saw all it did was raise prices of cars overall to the comsumer.
That money was from the $25 billion they were going to loan any carmaker (meeting the requirements) for future cars, but that's a loan not subsidy.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/sep...ness/fi-auto25
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-13-2008, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Keller, TX
5,670 posts, read 5,371,150 times
Reputation: 4083
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
What IrishTom said. College degrees are average nowadays and do not deserve any more compensation than a skilled trade that does not require a degree and is in higher demand... snip
I subscribe to the subjective theory of value (as opposed to the labor theory or the intrinsic value theory). Things are worth what people will pay for them, whether those things are widgets, cars, or employees. Someone could have Ph.D.s in multiple disciplines, pages of publication listings, a 190 IQ, and enviable awards, recommendations, and accomplishments. The supply of this type of "worker" will probably be extremely small. Yet, if the demand for this type of worker is even lower -- if these qualities are not valued in the workplace -- then the price paid (known as salary) would be low.

If the cost of entry into a job or career is low -- say, it requires a GED, an IQ of 80, and two weeks of training -- the supply might be higher for a job or career.

If the desirability of a job or career is low (the alternatives are better, the work is dangerous, distasteful, boring, etc), this would also be reflected in the supply of workers specializing or willing to work in that job or career -- the supply might be lower for an undesirable job or career. You have to consider both supply and demand as well as alternatives. If demand for a type of job is relatively high and supply of workers for a type of job is relatively low due to the high costs of ramping up for said job -- neurosurgeon comes to mind -- the two forces acting in concert will tend to push the equilibrium price (neurosurgeon's salary) up. If alternatives are more desirable (salary is higher, satisfaction is higher, bodily risk is lower, etc.), then resources (workers and their training/schooling) will tend to flow toward those alternatives, lowering supply for the first.

If an American-made automobile -- designed and built in the US -- is objectively superior to another similar automobile -- let's say it gets better mileage, has smaller panel gaps, is quieter, is more aerodynamic, accelerates faster, holds more stuff, etc. -- and the cost of creating that automobile was higher (due to anything, design and engineering costs, labor costs, whatever) -- the value associated with that vehicle will STILL be SUBJECTIVE and this will determine quantity sold based on demand. Some of this subjectivity might be down to what some might call irrationality -- "I'll never buy another domestic car" or "Japanese and European cars are always superior," for instance. Subjectivity is like that.

There's another force at work here -- the amount of pain the working staff can inflict by refusing to work. This is where unions come in. It's based on the inability to obtain alternatives and in this respect I suppose the best analogy to the consumer market would be with utilities or commodities.

I wanted to describe this to show my understanding of these concepts and show that salary is not what I'm talking about below. Moving on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
The US isn't in particular need of interior design firms...
There's the message. Humanoid wants your company to fail, or at least couldn't care less that it is. He doesn't think you contribute anything to the good of society, to the advancement, after all. He disdains your waste. You don't produce anything tangible, after all. We're not in particular need of you. Off with ye. Come back when you produce something important.

Fortunately, it's a big country and he alone does not get to decide what is important, what is valued and how much, and who fails or succeeds. If he did he'd probably put many tens of millions of people out of work as soon as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
...manufacturing on the other hand is rather important right now.
Rather important? The consumer market and the labor market will determine that. Beyond the allocation of resources and the valuation of consumer and labor elements, why do you insist on placing manufacturing on a pedestal above everything else?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
The amount of resistance to help working Americans is amazing...
Your arrogance is also amazing. As if people who don't work in a factory (i.e., I'm not a "working American") should bow down and realize they're worthless and should realize the absolute superiority of "working Americans" in factories because they actually "work" while we're good for nothing. Viva la revolution, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
...I'm talking about the paper pushers that leech on the productivity of the working class.
And you aren't pushing class warfare?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
If its not clear how something supports production, then its more than likely waste in the system... One thing matters in an economy - production.
This supposes two things: A) that people are unwilling to pay for anything other than tangible produced goods, and B) that an economy can never in time progress beyond being a strictly industrial economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
...working Americans, rather than say the leeches of Rentier capitalism.
Ahhhhh, here we go. How can anyone take your opinions and assertions seriously when you display such obvious bias? Such venom and disdain and an apparent but thinly-veiled Marxist agenda? Passive income is bad, mmmmkay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
When I go into an office, I see a lot of paper pushers. I really don't know what they do, I ask and still don't really get it. Does it take that many people to do that? When I go into a factory, a development studio etc....I understand what is going on. Everyone seems to be productive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
Yah, I see what you mean, as this would also be my four year old niece's take.
To clarify, I think this is ridiculous. You don't see little elves clearly putting wheels on wooden toy choo choos when you go into an office, so they must not be doing anything important? You don't understand the cursory explanation given when you ask around so it must be something that should die out?

Maybe it's off-topic for this thread. It is not the money issue I'm talking about. It's the attempt to shame, vilify, belittle, discredit, and debase those who aren't directly involved in factory work and manufacturing.

Last edited by Nepenthe; 12-13-2008 at 02:29 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-13-2008, 02:00 PM
 
Location: NJ
2,212 posts, read 6,458,862 times
Reputation: 2177
This white collar/blue collar superiority argument is ridiculous.

There is absolutely no good reason for all other workers to deliberately support and subsidize only one group of workers, be they bankers, farmers or auto workers.

Either they produce something other people want and can justify their salaries, or they can't. Whether that something is asset management, car doors or high fructose corn syrup, the market should be deciding the value of that work. If the businesses fail - because they sucked at organizing other peoples money, made cars nobody wanted or produced a product that makes us fat, they should fail and successful businesses should take over.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-13-2008, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Keller, TX
5,670 posts, read 5,371,150 times
Reputation: 4083
A Modest Proposal For The Auto Industry: Stop Building Cars
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-13-2008, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,860 posts, read 15,203,181 times
Reputation: 3576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Allowing the US auto makers to fail right now....is pretty much absurd. If they collapse the costs will be far greater.
This false dichotomy that either we have to pump in government money or GM, Ford, Chrysler will just cease to exist, and the world will stop turning, is incorrect. There are bankruptcy laws on the books for a reason. The "big three" have the ability to utilize these laws to restructure and emerge in better shape, but they won't do so. The union doesn't want bankruptcy because it would mean that a judge would have the power to throw all their collective bargaining agreements out the window and start over.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-13-2008, 03:51 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,212,781 times
Reputation: 10185
Quote:
Originally Posted by car54 View Post
I'll never forget those early 70's film images of UAW workers laughing as they took sledge hammers to a fugly little Toyota.

Confucius say...He who laughs last, laughs best.


You won't laugh if frustrated workers become radicals and communists and turn the hammers on you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-13-2008, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Midwest
4,672 posts, read 7,491,722 times
Reputation: 8402
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GO View Post
Great post Dwatted Wabbit
Thank you, 12.

Next I want to go to Haavahd and get my MBA so I can be a financial wizzard like #43.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top