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Old 12-13-2008, 06:17 PM
 
630 posts, read 1,707,068 times
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Any Union that asks the next generation of workers to take half the wages they made so that their retirees can continue to live an upper middle class retirement stinks!!!Let the UAW pension funds announce cuts,freeze COLA's for retirees for oh,say a DECADE or two,take over their health plan ASAP.Forgo any company payments into the plan until the little three get back on their.Force a pre-packaged chapter 11,so about a third to 40% of dealers can be closed(not gonna need them anyway!).Cut all white collar salaries by 25%,no raises for five years.However,institute a loyalty program for those who stay payable when conditions improve.Detriot,in a much smaller form will be saved,and in the medium term will become efficient.JMHO
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Old 12-14-2008, 04:23 AM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,436,712 times
Reputation: 4453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
You won't laugh if frustrated workers become radicals and communists and turn the hammers on you.
so frustrated union workers are now threatening the rest of america? everybody in america has to work and we all run the risk of losing our jobs if our company does not perform. every time GM unions makes demands they disenfranchise another customer and dig themselves a deeper hole. the GM union is just like the banks for bailouts because they think that they are "too big to fail". if we keep going at the rate we are going maybe we will find out that our country is not "too big to fail".
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Old 12-14-2008, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 3,556,669 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
There's the message. Humanoid wants your company to fail, or at least couldn't care less that it is.
You're right I don't care if a interior design firm fails, there are far too many of them. Its not hard to tell when some industry is so grossly over saturated.

GM and Ford on the other hand are far more important to the general economy. If the economy wasn't about to collapse I wouldn't care much if GM, ford etc went out of business. Its rather due to the current economic crisis that it is so absurd to allow this many jobs to potentially get destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
Your arrogance is also amazing. As if people who don't work in a factory (i.e., I'm not a "working American") should bow down and realize they're worthless...
I never suggested people that don't work in a factory are worthless. It is you that keep stressing this point, as you seem to have some odd complex regarding these matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
How can anyone take your opinions and assertions seriously when you display such obvious bias? Such venom and disdain and an apparent but thinly-veiled Marxist agenda? Passive income is bad, mmmmkay?
Yes passive income is largely bad. In what sense should someone be rewarded with the fruits of production when they don't contribute to production? When a capitalistic economy becomes overly driven by Rentier Capitalism it will collapse. If nobody produces anything there is nothing to consume. This has nothing to do with Communism really, many of the founders of classical economics had the same worries.

You want to make money by trading financial instruments over the internet. In what way does this contribute to production? It doesn't, its waste in the system. Ultimately, market forces will flush this waste out. They are doing a top-notch job at it as we speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
To clarify, I think this is ridiculous. You don't see little elves clearly putting wheels on wooden toy choo choos when you go into an office, so they must not be doing anything important? You don't understand the cursory explanation given when you ask around so it must be something that should die out?
I don't recall mentioning elves. I will just repeat myself, if its not clear in what way person X contributes to the productive capacity of a company that person is likely to be a paper pusher, essentially waste in the company.

The brain analogy brought up previously is actually true of a lot of America businesses and its partly why American business is so inefficient. Workers need to understand their roll in production because the greatest insights in improved efficiency will come from the workers not some upper-management bean counters. This is something the Japanese learned decades ago....
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Old 12-14-2008, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 3,556,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
This false dichotomy that either we have to pump in government money or GM, Ford, Chrysler will just cease to exist, and the world will stop turning, is incorrect. There are bankruptcy laws on the books for a reason.
As has been mentioned countless times, bankruptcy in the case of an auto maker will most likely result in a liquidation. Sure its possible, that they come out of a bankruptcy kicking, but that is not the likely outcome. It has nothing to do with bankruptcy laws....rather how consumers will react to a bankrupt auto maker (Surveys show the vast majority wouldn't purchase an auto from them).
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Old 12-14-2008, 09:15 AM
 
370 posts, read 937,187 times
Reputation: 674
In my opinion if anyones going to get bailed out it should be the people who regularly are contributing taxpayers. If everyone was to be given a lump sum the banks would get most of the money anyway because of people paying off loans, their homes, credit cards, etc. That is what I would have done and then I would not have had to go bankrupt with my divorce, upside down house and attorney fees. If I could even have gotten by net income for a year I could have pulled myself out of it. If the people did not have debt to pay then they maybe would invest their share in stocks, further making the economy better. Even if they used the money on a shopping spree it would still go back into the economy. I admit I am in no way a financial guru but I cannot see how that approach would be more helpful than just giving money to the banks. Maybe some people would even buy cars and that would help the auto industry.

Last edited by runrgirl; 12-14-2008 at 09:31 AM..
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Old 12-14-2008, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,860 posts, read 15,204,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
As has been mentioned countless times, bankruptcy in the case of an auto maker will most likely result in a liquidation.
Just because it's "been mentioned countless times" doesn't make it true. The truth is that we don't know, and the surveys that have been taken are based on flawed premises and questions.

Again, what do people think we have now or with a bailout? We have a defacto bankruptcy... not much difference except that the chances of emerging as a viable company would probably be higher with a structured pre-arranged bankruptcy.
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Old 12-14-2008, 01:56 PM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,436,712 times
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this bailout is not about saving the GM workers. this is a market manipulation to keep cerberus from losing money. cerberus is a hedge fund run by a former united states treasury secretary. they buy up bankrupt companies and loot them, recently looting mervyn's and forcing them into bankruptcy. the fact that our government's financial affairs are run by hidden financiers who make money in secretive ways should alarm the public.
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Old 12-14-2008, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 3,556,669 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Just because it's "been mentioned countless times" doesn't make it true. The truth is that we don't know, and the surveys that have been taken are based on flawed premises and questions.
Flawed premises and questions? In what way exactly? Its not exactly a hard survey to do....
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Old 12-14-2008, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,860 posts, read 15,204,647 times
Reputation: 3576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Flawed premises and questions? In what way exactly? Its not exactly a hard survey to do....
Asking the "average Joe" a question such as: would you buy a car from a bankrupt auto manufacturer? is flawed and doesn't provide enough information.

Most people don't understand what chapter 11 bankruptcy really is and assume it means chapter 7 and that the company is going out of business and liquidating.

The questions also don't mention whether or not there would be a government backed "structured bankruptcy" and what warranty backing woud be provided by the government or other 3rd parties.

For the 3rd time, what do you or others think is the situation now? They are defacto bankrupt anyway.
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 3,556,669 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Asking the "average Joe" a question such as: would you buy a car from a bankrupt auto manufacturer? is flawed and doesn't provide enough information.
Do you think stating your position again makes it true? Yes I know you think this, now I'm asking you what actually supports this position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Most people don't understand what chapter 11 bankruptcy really is and assume it means chapter 7 and that the company is going out of business and liquidating.
If true....wouldn't this be an argument in favor for the case that the vast majority of people wouldn't buy from a bankrupt auto maker? Do you think part of the GM bankruptcy is going to be a gigantic public bankruptcy education program?
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