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Old 12-14-2008, 08:14 PM
 
4,711 posts, read 11,189,330 times
Reputation: 3778

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
You won't laugh if frustrated workers become radicals and communists and turn the hammers on you.

No, I didn't mean I am laughing. If anyone is, I imagine it is the Japanese auto makers. The Big 3 had decades to get their act together and I'm sorry they didn't. The auto workers are mostly not at fault for this.

I hate to see the US car companies go under. But you're right, I think we will have anarchy before this is over. I am trying to prepare for it...the wife and I fired several thousand rounds this beautiful Sunday afternoon! We are determined to NOT be a soft target....
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Old 12-14-2008, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Keller, TX
5,670 posts, read 5,380,330 times
Reputation: 4083
I maintain your viewpoints are biased and sometimes mired in class warfare terms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Its rather due to the current economic crisis that it is so absurd to allow this many jobs to potentially get destroyed.
And nothing to do with the particular type of job in question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
I never suggested people that don't work in a factory are worthless.
Did I misunderstand references to "fancy degrees," "leeches," people who aren't "working Americans," and "waste?" Not to mention tired cliches like "bean counters" and "pencil pushers."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
If its not clear how something supports production, then its more than likely waste in the system... One thing matters in an economy - production.
This supposes two things: A) that people are unwilling to pay for anything other than tangible produced goods, and B) that an economy can never in time progress beyond being a strictly industrial economy. I'm repeating this because it bears repeating. Industrial production should not comprise 100% of the economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Yes passive income is largely bad. In what sense should someone be rewarded with the fruits of production when they don't contribute to production?
So don't buy bonds, don't buy equity. Don't purchase a passive interest in a small business enterprise. Don't purchase rental property. Don't do things and make decisions that can generate income other than that which comes from clocking in at the factory or (god forbid) the office every single day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
You want to make money by trading financial instruments over the internet. In what way does this contribute to production? It doesn't, its waste in the system.
I do make money in this way. I created a thread mentioning a temporary way to earn money doing this more or less "full time" while/if I'm unemployed (which unemployment I'm sure proves all your points since I'm apparently just "waste" and make $60K using my mind working in a large office with my six+ years of post high-school education), not my most fervent long-term career aspiration. Trading in and out of DIG and DUG six hours a day wouldn't contribute much, and wouldn't be very fulfilling either. But neither would being a cog in the wheel attaching cogs onto wheels in a factory, in my opinion.

I'm paid to use my mind and acquired skills and proficiencies, and my mind is my greatest asset. I don't build rocking chairs or attach car bumpers. If my salary comes down, so be it. However, why don't we let the market determine what my skills are worth and what my contribution is, rather than referring to them as "leeching" and "waste" and implying that it isn't work at all?

But I'm curious, Dr. Humanoid, what is your prescription for all these tens of millions of people who are merely waste in the system? Since (in your world) fancy degrees don't do squat, since the only thing that matters is production, since they've been doing exactly nothing but wasting, what would you have these people do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
I will just repeat myself, if its not clear in what way person X contributes to the productive capacity of a company that person is likely to be a paper pusher, essentially waste in the company.
Not clear to whom, exactly? You? Is it possible someone could be essential to the operations of a firm without it being smack-you-in-the-eye obvious what they're doing (building toy choo-choos, for instance) the second you spot them?

Who gets to make that decision? Not you. How were idle union workers in job banks contributing, exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Workers need to understand their roll [sic] in production because the greatest insights in improved efficiency will come from the workers not some upper-management bean counters.
Is improved efficiency something a line worker in every type of industry (union or non) would strive for? Maybe, maybe not.

In my job, I deal with all levels of the company. Line personnel: front-line associates, back-line grunts, work leaders, managers, directors, senior directors, VPs, senior VPs, exec VPs, and presidents. Staff personnel: engineering, technology, regional support, reporting, networking, etc. Some of my job is bringing Staff and Line together to achieve mutual goals.

It has been my experience that once you get at or above the VP level in Line or Staff, you can get a lot done, however you're often too high up in the atmosphere to see what's really going on or to care about details. You can learn a lot from the front-line, but they're often too low down on the ground to see or care about any of the big picture. However, there is a LOT of room between cog-in-the-wheel front-liners and stratospheric exec VPs, and it is this realm of engineers and technology people as well as directors and low end VPs who actually work their asses off, move things forward, and get things done. It is not black and white. Some people who work in an office do an amazing job, work hard as hell 60 hours a week, and make real advances, and you might watch them for an hour and not understand what in the hell they're doing, but that's irrelevant.
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Old 12-14-2008, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Keller, TX
5,670 posts, read 5,380,330 times
Reputation: 4083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
You won't laugh if frustrated workers become radicals and communists and turn the hammers on you.
Wow!

So now the oppressed workers could riot and commit aggravated assault on other citizens? Sounds like yet another reason to avoid Michigan...
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Old 12-15-2008, 12:29 AM
 
3,853 posts, read 11,862,236 times
Reputation: 2521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoid View Post
Its truly odd that there is such hostility toward the auto bailout despite being relatively small where as 100's times this amount is being used to bailout idiotic financial institutions.

If you're going to block such things, block it all. Let the system collapse, of course those in congress are wealthy and if the established system collapsed so would their wealth....
I agree entirely. However, you must realize that the banks are the masterminds of all this. The whole idea was to give credit like crazy, bid up asset prices and then let it implode when they turned the credit atm off. All of the loses from those had to be placed on taxpayer's bill. That was their main priority. If not, most banks would go bust and that could risk jepordizing their bank monopolies. They allowed S&L institutions to amortize their bad debt expense over 40 years hence, disguising the fact that the vast majority of banks were insolvent, just as they are today. The way the banks jump start the economy again: buy up assets for a fraction of the peak prices. That is what they did during the great depression. Bailout here bailout there it is all consolidating power into a select few individuals. It has been going on for decades now.

No surprise that 80% of the entire world's wealth is controlled by the top 1%.

In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth
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Old 12-15-2008, 03:11 AM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,447,255 times
Reputation: 4453
the "oppressed workers" don't seem to understand that this 15 billion bailout is not actually intended to save them ( the numbers are not actually there to save them), but just to give cerberus time on its hedge fund credit default swap. they got a 4th extension and if they can become a bank holding company they get free money from the government via the fed.
GMAC sweetens terms of debt swap, extends deadline | Industries | Consumer Goods & Retail | Reuters
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 3,561,515 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
And nothing to do with the particular type of job in question?
Nope. Under normal conditions I would suggest a bankruptcy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
Did I misunderstand references to "fancy degrees," "leeches," people who aren't "working Americans," and "waste?" Not to mention tired cliches like "bean counters" and "pencil pushers."
Yes you did. I'm not just talking about factory workers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
This supposes two things: A) that people are unwilling to pay for anything other than tangible produced goods, and B) that an economy can never in time progress beyond being a strictly industrial economy. I'm repeating this because it bears repeating. Industrial production should not comprise 100% of the economy.
I'll say it again, I'm not just talking about factory workers. I'm talking about production which includes far more than factory work. I'm not making any distinction between say software development and auto manufacturing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
So don't buy bonds, don't buy equity. Don't purchase a passive interest in a small business enterprise. Don't purchase rental property. Don't do things and make decisions that can generate income other than that which comes from clocking in at the factory or (god forbid) the office every single day.
I love the false dichotomy, either its passive or factory work. Anyhow, I don't buy those things. I say away from passive income, its a boring way to "make" money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
while/if I'm unemployed (which unemployment I'm sure proves all your points since I'm apparently just "waste" and make $60K using my mind working in a large office with my six+ years of post high-school education), not my most fervent long-term career aspiration.......However, why don't we let the market determine what my skills are worth and what my contribution is, rather than referring to them as "leeching" and "waste" and implying that it isn't work at all?
I don't know what you do so I'm not making any claims about you personal. I haven't referred to what you do as "waste", etc once. But your 6+ years of education is irrelevant.

Also, ultimately the markets will determine what your skills are worth. But there is going to be a dramatic repricing of skills over the next couple of years. The market is flooded with particular sorts of "thought workers", while lacking in other sorts of workers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
....since the only thing that matters is production, since they've been doing exactly nothing but wasting, what would you have these people do?
Start productive businesses or get real jobs = )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
Not clear to whom, exactly? You? Is it possible someone could be essential to the operations of a firm without it being smack-you-in-the-eye obvious what they're doing (building toy choo-choos, for instance) the second you spot them?
Not clear to someone doing a workforce analysis and not clear to the person themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepenthe View Post
It has been my experience that once you get at or above the VP level in Line or Staff, you can get a lot done, however you're often too high up in the atmosphere to see what's really going on or to care about details. You can learn a lot from the front-line, but they're often too low down on the ground to see or care about any of the big picture. However, there is a LOT of room between cog-in-the-wheel front-liners and stratospheric exec VPs, and it is this realm of engineers and technology people as well as directors and low end VPs...
You are describing the prototypical American business structure, I think this way of structuring a company is a miserable failure.
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Old 12-17-2008, 04:45 AM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes NH.
3,606 posts, read 5,338,938 times
Reputation: 3816
Senator Corker from Tennessee stated that the Big 3 need to "bring wages immediately in line with companies like Nissan and Volkswagen."

Of course this is his response because those plants are in his state.

Corker has also been critical of the Big 3's perceived inferior quality automobiles. What is interesting is that Nissan is in financial dire straits themselves and Volkswagen has consistently been rated lower in quality than the Big 3.

Senator Corker's comments are disingenuous, transparent and self-serving!
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Old 12-17-2008, 09:20 AM
 
13,137 posts, read 19,290,758 times
Reputation: 21577
Quote:
Originally Posted by car54 View Post
.the wife and I fired several thousand rounds this beautiful Sunday afternoon! We are determined to NOT be a soft target....
several THOUSAND rounds? hahaha, well thanks for singlehandedly keeping the firearms and ammunition companies in business.
Talk about overreact. I love firearms as well, but not enough to shoot off $500 worth of ammo.
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Old 12-17-2008, 09:34 AM
 
3,635 posts, read 7,869,327 times
Reputation: 2961
What amazes me is the hatred of buying anything American, as if it were gauche. Or somehow just so unbelievably tacky, only the stupid do it.

It's especially prevalent on the coasts, of course. Yet when the actual numbers come out, American made cars are some of the best you can buy, while Volkswagen and BMW (... especially BMW) are never called into question for their reported number of significant issues.
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Old 12-17-2008, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Lakes & Mountains of East TN
3,454 posts, read 6,727,344 times
Reputation: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
several THOUSAND rounds? hahaha, well thanks for singlehandedly keeping the firearms and ammunition companies in business.
Talk about overreact. I love firearms as well, but not enough to shoot off $500 worth of ammo.
I didn't read the whole thread but don't see where the joke lies? Who said they were using a particular type of ammunition?

For instance, when we go plinking with the 22's, we can go through 1,000 rounds in about 45 minutes with two people shooting. It's a ton of fun and great for the eye. And a thousand rounds is anywhere from 18-23 bucks.

So before you mock someone, try to think of the possibilities.
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