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Thread summary:

Public debt: mortgage, credit card, government bonds, investments, loans money.

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Old 01-10-2009, 08:46 PM
 
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Several points, I'll try to make some semblance of it. Who said we have to accept fractional reserve banking on face value? Forget gold, full reserve banking would prove more stabilizing than just accepting fractional reserve banking. It really is a political tug-o-war, there are those who think private banking should control money creation (our system, if you think about it long enough), then there are those of us who think returning the creation of money to the hands of the Treasury and doing away with the Fed would be a better alternative. And do away with fractional reserve banking while we're at it. Heck, we can debate the academics of full versus fractional banking all day, but at a minimum, the Fed and having to pay interest on our own currency is a freggin' scam and no amount of willful ignorance makes it right. Wake up.

Having the Govt be the sole entity responsible for your monetary inflation and exercising the process of being an active true (one with spine, which carries a burden and a sacrifice) citizenry to replace said leaders like the constitution intended sure is easier (in theory) than having to constantly sound like a conspiracy theorist under the frustrating endeavor that entails proving to an appeased slave mass of people that the same "liberties" they adjudicate to having these private banking institutions controlling the money supply (i.e. if they can get rich, I TOO "could" be rich; the american paradox) , is in effect their slavery. Of course Americans had more spine in 1845 than they do today (a culturally balkanized population...Rome ring a bell?) so the odds of the Treasury regaining control of the creation of money and the return of interest free money creation as a result, is about slim to none, unless anyone of ya'll want to pick up the pitchforks and march to DC...yeah didn't think so...

We're doomed to become another historical re-run at the rate we're going. I honestly believe this inertia has more to with our cultural balkanization (paradoxical, given our immigrant nature) than any other macroscopically identifiable reason out there. We can turn this boat around, but I don't think it can be attained until the baby boomers die off, they're part of the problem from a inter-generational warfare perspective, they're a big anchor (sorry boomers, you've become too dependent on the current inflationary scam, and too old to reset, we can't fix this unless you let go of the dream, from a basic population perspective..). I am hopeful Gen Y and Gen Z will not have the benefit of the aforementioned economic upswing and will react fundamentally from the paradigms held as gospel by boomers for the better part of the 20th century, leading to a dramatic but necessary change to our monetary policy, perhaps as brave as enacting the changes I speak of...I have a dream too lol.
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Old 01-10-2009, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,802,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
I honestly believe this inertia has more to with our cultural balkanization (paradoxical, given our immigrant nature) than any other macroscopically identifiable reason out there. .
intriguing? Could you could go into more depth on this subject?
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Old 01-10-2009, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Road Warrior
2,015 posts, read 5,087,125 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post

The average person owes some 30,000K plus. That sounds just terrible. However these same children will be saddled with 300,000K in mortgage auto and credit card debt at interest. The fun part is they need to be in debt 300,000k because their own debt circulates as money. When they try to pay it off(collectively) a depression must occur.
I get your point, "it takes money to make money". While the philosophy may not be wrong, there are some pitfalls to the statement alone, the first is which you are right children tommorow will be straddled with perhaps $300,000 in loans on average. Certainly you aren't approved of these loans without enough wage or a co-signer, so you need the capital to start off with. We just had a financial and mortgage crisis not too long ago, why do you think that is, people banking off on price gouging and debt. Banking solely on debt is a bad investment.

Even a millionaire needs to make the right investments in order to keep from being bankrupt. The government is a prime example of this millionaire. The best way to consider a nations solvency is to calculate it's current and future fiscal burden. The biggest concern of future burdens is of course the retirement of the baby boomers in which mandatory expenditures will exceed all tax revenue. The individual w/ $300,000 in loans is banking they will pay it off as a long term investment. In an extreme example if people do not have confidence in the long term financial stability of the U.S. government chances are the you may eventually see the collapse of long-term investing all together.
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Old 01-10-2009, 10:53 PM
 
Location: southern california
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bailout is not working. american government is not a watch dog, its a lap dog. we are going down, get ready put on your seat belt.
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Old 01-11-2009, 04:11 PM
 
1,772 posts, read 4,072,424 times
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Originally Posted by baystater View Post
intriguing? Could you could go into more depth on this subject?
What I pointed out with the paradoxical nature of our cultural balkanization, is that I attribute the reluctance and skepticism with which we (myself included) view the impossibility of radical populist change required to effect such drastic monetary policy changes (which are resisted by the banking plutocratic class of course) to the social dynamics of an American population that's more of an emulsion today than the melting pot that it claimed to be for the last 120 years. The immigration dynamics of today encompass a highly anti-assimilation attitude compared to migration patterns of yesteryear, and I argue that this is the fundamental reason things are always "split down the middle" among people in this country, and the banking class benefits from a fragmented proletariat class.

Everybody is looking out for #1, not because selfishness is all of a sudden real (it has always existed), but because what's good for me is not good for my neighbor anymore as he does not hold the same values and allegiances as I do. If Americans were more culturally homogenic, populist and labor movements would be more feasible and sustainable. Instead we have come to a paradigm shift where Americans' allegiance to this country is focused on the "platform" America provides for them, which is why immigrants still come but now don't want to fully vest themselves as they once did. This is the true balkanization of the population and it leads to a political fragmentation that fosters an environment of grid lock, and makes those of us who speak against the systemic slavery of the collective look like mere marginalized conspiracy theorists because the populace can't even agree with a simple majority what color the sky is any given day. Americans have bought the globalization lie completely and now being American is a mere function of having access to the world by virtue of a passport; so the mexican day laborer in Texas has nothing in common nor does he ASPIRE to have anything in common with the white blue collar worker in Nebraska, not in language, not in values and certainly not in a sense of allegiance to the ideal of America, which transcends a stupid house and access to material goods. That wasn't true in 1836, slavery notwithstanding, and is the fundamental reason the changes I speak about are obediently dismissed. Balkanization made the Roman Empire collapse under their own weight and we, as much as we swear we're truly "E Plurubus Unum", are doing nothing more than paralelling the course the Romans traveled. Furthermore, I believe the particular population age disparities between the baby boomers and the subsequent generation do cement this toxic environment of apathy. I hope and foresee that as the baby boomers die off we can go back to an environment where the population has lost its sense of "boom cycle" and can reset the fundamental assumptions of the daily American life to include the role inflationary economics play in the expectations of life and happiness of said Americans. If we can impart on immigrants a more modest expectation of life in America, forged by a sobering Gen Y/Z and beyond, we stand a chance at succeeding in the pursuit of REAL monetary and economic change. I hate to scapegoat the boomers, but they are truly a major hurdle in enacting change (they feel it would be at their expense and won't let go of the jobs and inflated dreams), along with an immigrant culture of non-assimilation. Remember, a lot of "immigrants" are coming here to buy up our land resources, not move up the social ladder, therefore they have no interest beyond the preservation of an obedient domestic population to protect the value of their assets, to have allegiance to the red white and blue... This is the paradox I speak of.
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,802,008 times
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Default Poll

//www.city-data.com/forum/polit...onal-debt.html


ran a poll in another board to see what would happen. Here it is.
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 3,552,147 times
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Well you can take such a poll, but the results are going to be obvious. The vast majority of people don't understand our monetary system and think of the federal deficit in the same way they think of a household deficit. For them personally "debt is bad", so in their thinking that should also extend to the federal government.

But the federal government finances are nothing like a household......for one it has to run a deficit.
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Old 01-13-2009, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, New York
195 posts, read 690,703 times
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A one hundred dollars bill is about 0.0043 inches think!
A trillion dollars, in $100 dollars bills, are about 678.66 miles long!
Going from New York to Philly is about 110 miles!
The U.S. debt is about $11 trillion now!
Obama will add another one trillion dollars!
Totally, if they were $100 bills, $12 trillions will be equal to 8144 miles long!
Anybody else wanna to say national debt is good!
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Old 01-13-2009, 02:40 PM
 
18,324 posts, read 16,262,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerDuke08 View Post
I get your point, "it takes money to make money". While the philosophy may not be wrong, there are some pitfalls to the statement alone, the first is which you are right children tommorow will be straddled with perhaps $300,000 in loans on average. Certainly you aren't approved of these loans without enough wage or a co-signer, so you need the capital to start off with. We just had a financial and mortgage crisis not too long ago, why do you think that is, people banking off on price gouging and debt. Banking solely on debt is a bad investment.

Even a millionaire needs to make the right investments in order to keep from being bankrupt. The government is a prime example of this millionaire. The best way to consider a nations solvency is to calculate it's current and future fiscal burden. The biggest concern of future burdens is of course the retirement of the baby boomers in which mandatory expenditures will exceed all tax revenue. The individual w/ $300,000 in loans is banking they will pay it off as a long term investment. In an extreme example if people do not have confidence in the long term financial stability of the U.S. government chances are the you may eventually see the collapse of long-term investing all together.

Hi RangerDuke08,

No you did not quite get the point. I warn you its not intuitive. All money is some form of debt. Someone else's car loan may wind up being in my pay check etc. To simply buy and sell someone must owe a bank.
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Old 01-13-2009, 03:08 PM
 
12,992 posts, read 19,203,467 times
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I understand the OP's original syopsis and I agree with it. I believe that borrowing, as long as the return (the increased productivity caused by the infusion of funds into the economy) is positive. The key is the phrase TO A POINT.

Like anything, there is a deminishing curve to this. A government wants to borrow during bad times and pay back during good times. That's obvious and it works, to a degree. Cut taxes (don't increase entitlements, that's not productive) and economy will improve with the infusion of funds to a certain degree.

You really need to apply basic finance to this equation, companies do this everyday - debt vs equity, return on debt, etc. As of last year Debt vs GDP was still lower than, for example, the 50's and 60's. That is not the case now. And we have yet to measure any returns from the last $800 billion infusion. No company will invest another $800 billion without measuring the effect of the first $800 billion. No company would do the first $800 billion without knowing exactly what it will do anyways. Only politicians will do that.
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