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Thread summary:

Public debt: mortgage, credit card, government bonds, investments, loans money.

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Old 08-24-2011, 01:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
And what would be the fastest growing part of the Federal Budget?

That would be interest on the debt.

Kind of shoots a hole in your MMT theory doesn't it.
It just means you have no idea what you are talking about. Increased interest just means more printing. And once again they could pay off the national debt tomorrow. Simply convert all treasuries into legal tender. If you keep thinking this works like clam shells you will never follow the pea.

Quote:

The debt based inflationary economy is a bankers creation, that benefits no one except the bankers.

A gold standard would slow inflation to a crawl, and encourage savings over credit, which would cost the money brokers dearly, but hey screw them, vote for Ron Paul and tell the banks and the Fed to pound sand in their backsides.

We have had two depressions in this country. Both happened after implementing a gold standard. Could you just imagine gold would keep rising and people putting bars in their mattress? Instant depression. Its already happened twice. What more evidence do you need before destroying another generation? Kind of shoots a hole in the head doesn't it?
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:48 PM
 
18,328 posts, read 16,283,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
No.

It just reinforces that if the interest at that level were set at zero -- the interest on that debt would be zero.

Zero = Zero math aint THAT hard.



. . . IF and only IF they collect interest on that debt . . .



In what fantasy land election do you think you are going be allowed to vote for a "Ron Paul" character?

They are tolerated as a circus sideshows -- so the knuckle-draggers can hoot and hollar -- and stay out of the Great Corporate Way.

Even if you could get a Ron Paul character elected, tell me why the Supreme Court would not just nullify the count and declare a Corporate Candidate the winner? (not like that would ever happen, right?)

Hi Philip T,

Its frightening really. If people don't understand, then what protections does a republic provide? They don't get it, so let Stalin decide. I was nauseated over this preposterous " default" nonsense when the debt is owed in the USA's own fiat currency. Yet this was considered serious economic news. It could certainly be refused internationally causing inflation, but not at the levels seen in external economies like pacific islanders.

Not one of those Ron Paul fanatics has ever addressed the past in this regard. What will prevent the hoarding of the money supply? I'd also like to know how they plan paying for online purchases or going to the ATM? A bag of gold flakes on Friday? At best it will be fiat and fractional all over again. And vaults? Yeah like a camera with a false feed watching the "gold".

The money supply in each person's possession should be public knowledge. That is all that should be reported periodically. That does not mean net worth BTW, and since I would dump the IRS, privacy would improve. That would prevent funny business with the money supply. Its only purpose is to support transactions, not for use as mattress stuffing.
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Old 08-24-2011, 03:49 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,481,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
It just means you have no idea what you are talking about. Increased interest just means more printing. And once again they could pay off the national debt tomorrow. Simply convert all treasuries into legal tender. If you keep thinking this works like clam shells you will never follow the pea.
Yes, I see now, you are a genius! All we need to do is keep printing and we can eradicate what little confidence people still have in the garbage we call the dollar and treasuries and then we can have hyper inflation and use it all for ass wipe.... Brilliant... Why didn't we do this sooner!


Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
We have had two depressions in this country. Both happened after implementing a gold standard. Could you just imagine gold would keep rising and people putting bars in their mattress? Instant depression. Its already happened twice. What more evidence do you need before destroying another generation? Kind of shoots a hole in the head doesn't it?
Nothing like re writing history to further an idiotic agenda.
The Federal Reserve was created in 1913, in a very few years they flooded the economy with borrowed money, which in turn caused the great depression.
They did exactly the same thing in the latest housing bubble causing this economic fiasco.
I hope someone pays you to write this drivel, because I would hate to think someone was stupid enough to really believe it.
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Old 08-24-2011, 04:18 PM
 
18,328 posts, read 16,283,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhcom View Post
Yes, I see now, you are a genius! All we need to do is keep printing and we can eradicate what little confidence people still have in the garbage we call the dollar and treasuries and then we can have hyper inflation and use it all for ass wipe.... Brilliant... Why didn't we do this sooner!
Another hyper inflation guy. I made the right call back in 2008 in this forum. No inflation, even deflation, until the first QE, and then price rises in goods not purchased by finance while assets purchased by finance continue to decline.


I keep spelling it out while its the usual cliche` that you parrot.


The highest debt to GDP ratio of any country by far is Japan. Massive debt right? How can they have more than twice the debt to GDP ratio than the US but it took an Earth Quake to take down Japan? Yet they are still better off. Why? Just give me an answer and lets see you not make a foolish answer.



Quote:
Nothing like re writing history to further an idiotic agenda.
The Federal Reserve was created in 1913, in a very few years they flooded the economy with borrowed money, which in turn caused the great depression.
They did exactly the same thing in the latest housing bubble causing this economic fiasco.
I hope someone pays you to write this drivel, because I would hate to think someone was stupid enough to really believe it.
Anytime anyone uses words like "drivel" means they are emphasizing a fiat sort of argument, empty of the facts.


FDR takes United States off gold standard — History.com This Day in History — 6/5/1933
The United States had been on a gold standard since 1879, except for an embargo on gold exports during World War I, but bank failures during the Great Depression of the 1930s frightened the public into hoarding gold, making the policy untenable.
People always will hoard gold during panics causing depressions. Its a simple fact of history every time we were on one.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:11 AM
 
12,869 posts, read 13,431,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bale002 View Post
I understand what you are saying, gwynedd1, but I don't think the underlying issue is how we tinker with the financial system or the monetary system.

The real issue is whether we are productive or not, whether we are corrupt or not.

Even if we had an efficient and fair financial system, history shows that corrupt men can ruin even good institutions.

To go back on topic, to support your argument, I would point to Japan: though the Japanese economy as measured by GDP growth and equity prices has more or less stagnated since their real estate crash in the late 1980s, I believe it was, while the national debt/GDP ratio has ballooned to well over 100%, it seems that the Japanese standard of living has remained at a high level, as measured by life expectancy, among other indicators, such as the pace of technological innovation in terms of public transport and electronics.

But I would defer to an expert on Japan to verify that.

But again, the US too could have the government run banks and direct infrastructure investment, but if the men controlling the resources and making the investment decisions are corrupt, that won't work too well either, regardless of how they finance themselves (to be sure, in the name of the "good of the American people").
this is a blog from 2009, which i think got it right in terms of us, japan, and china:

Japan’s ZIRP Black Hole Expands To The US, EU And UK | Culture of Life News

never in history has a debt crisis been solved with more debt. i certainly don't think that japan was an appropriate analogy previously, because the japanese were savers, although not so much now:

http://www.wisebread.com/comparing-s...es-us-vs-japan

look at the decline in their savings. we never had that kind of savings to start with.
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Old 08-25-2011, 08:18 AM
 
18,328 posts, read 16,283,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
this is a blog from 2009, which i think got it right in terms of us, japan, and china:

Japan’s ZIRP Black Hole Expands To The US, EU And UK | Culture of Life News

never in history has a debt crisis been solved with more debt. i certainly don't think that japan was an appropriate analogy previously, because the japanese were savers, although not so much now:

Comparing Savings Rates: U.S. vs Japan | Wise Bread

look at the decline in their savings. we never had that kind of savings to start with.

floridasandy,



The reason that there was a decline in saving is because they make no interest while the yen is sapped by their central bank. Anyone who would discuss the savings rate without addressing zero interest rates is a complete fool proving anyone can have a blog.

You do not have the correct answer. The question is, does anyone? I am still waiting...

How can Japan have, by far, the worst GDP to debt ratio while still having a more sound position? I know.

Last edited by gwynedd1; 08-25-2011 at 08:50 AM..
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Old 08-25-2011, 11:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
floridasandy,



The reason that there was a decline in saving is because they make no interest while the yen is sapped by their central bank. Anyone who would discuss the savings rate without addressing zero interest rates is a complete fool proving anyone can have a blog.

You do not have the correct answer. The question is, does anyone? I am still waiting...

How can Japan have, by far, the worst GDP to debt ratio while still having a more sound position? I know.
i guess you will have to define a good/sound position.

japan's credit has been downgraded, they can't buy homes or their homes are tiny, their savings are dwindling, and they have one of the highest suicide rates in the industrialized world:

Suicide in Japan has become a significant problem nationally. Factors in suicide include unemployment (due to the economic recession in the 1990s), depression, and social pressures. Suicide is predominately the result of a combination of factors such as healthcare provision, social attitudes, cultural influences and economic distress. In 2007, the National Police Agency revised the categorization of motives for suicide into a division of 50 reasons with up to three reasons listed for each suicide. Suicides traced to losing jobs surged 65.3 percent while those attributed to hardships in life increased 34.3 percent. Depression remained at the top of the list for the third year in a row, rising 7.1 percent from the previous year.

The rapid increase in suicides since the 1990s has raised concerns. For example, 1998 saw a 34.7% increase over the previous year.Japan has one of the world's highest suicide rates, especially amongst industrialized nations,[5][dated info] and the Japanese government reported the rate for 2006 as being the ninth highest in the world.

In 2009, the number of suicides rose 2 percent to 32,845 exceeding 30,000 for the twelfth straight year and equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people.[7] This amounts to approximately one suicide every 15 minutes (source, wikipedia)

or this report from the bank of japan this year, "japan announces economy in bad shape":

http://traderbase.iforex.com/japan-a...ent_source=tns

and their government is lying to them about a nuclear disaster problem.

other than that, it is all good in japan, except for the future (edward hugh):
Further down the road only lie major tax increases (which will surely slow the domestic economy even further) or (ultimately)debt restructuring, since surely, even in the Japan case, the sky is not the limit for sovereign debt, and while any Japan sovereign restructuring would have little external impact given that the Japanese are the main holders of their own debt, Japan's banks (who hold the lion's share) would hardly escape unscathed.

Last edited by floridasandy; 08-25-2011 at 11:56 AM..
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Old 08-25-2011, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Malaysia
322 posts, read 474,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N.Y.Traveler View Post
A one hundred dollars bill is about 0.0043 inches think!
A trillion dollars, in $100 dollars bills, are about 678.66 miles long!
Going from New York to Philly is about 110 miles!
The U.S. debt is about $11 trillion now!
Obama will add another one trillion dollars!
Totally, if they were $100 bills, $12 trillions will be equal to 8144 miles long!
Anybody else wanna to say national debt is good!
The American President with Democrats and Republicans voted just as the rest of the Americans who voted for them in the office. So America has voted - In Debt We Trust.

Coming soon to the Federal Banks near you - USD would be printed as In Debt We Trust to replace In Cash We Trust in the dollar bill.
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Old 08-25-2011, 01:15 PM
 
18,328 posts, read 16,283,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
i guess you will have to define a good/sound position.

japan's credit has been downgraded, they can't buy homes or their homes are tiny, their savings are dwindling, and they have one of the highest suicide rates in the industrialized world:




Suicide in Japan has become a significant problem nationally. Factors in suicide include unemployment (due to the economic recession in the 1990s), depression, and social pressures. Suicide is predominately the result of a combination of factors such as healthcare provision, social attitudes, cultural influences and economic distress. In 2007, the National Police Agency revised the categorization of motives for suicide into a division of 50 reasons with up to three reasons listed for each suicide. Suicides traced to losing jobs surged 65.3 percent while those attributed to hardships in life increased 34.3 percent. Depression remained at the top of the list for the third year in a row, rising 7.1 percent from the previous year.

The rapid increase in suicides since the 1990s has raised concerns. For example, 1998 saw a 34.7% increase over the previous year.Japan has one of the world's highest suicide rates, especially amongst industrialized nations,[5][dated info] and the Japanese government reported the rate for 2006 as being the ninth highest in the world.

In 2009, the number of suicides rose 2 percent to 32,845 exceeding 30,000 for the twelfth straight year and equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people.[7] This amounts to approximately one suicide every 15 minutes (source, wikipedia)

or this report from the bank of japan this year, "japan announces economy in bad shape":

Japan Announces Economy In Bad Shape

and their government is lying to them about a nuclear disaster problem.

other than that, it is all good in japan, except for the future (edward hugh):
Further down the road only lie major tax increases (which will surely slow the domestic economy even further) or (ultimately)debt restructuring, since surely, even in the Japan case, the sky is not the limit for sovereign debt, and while any Japan sovereign restructuring would have little external impact given that the Japanese are the main holders of their own debt, Japan's banks (who hold the lion's share) would hardly escape unscathed.

floridasandy,

You have made a list of issues not related to the mismanagement of finances.
That the government lies about their nuclear disaster is as relevant one's savings having any outcome on a biopsy. Japan has problems, but its not related to the debt to GDP ratio. Maybe i was a disaster or something or perhaps their completely lopsided export structure dependent on the West. The West and earthquakes took them down.


You, like so many others cannot fundamentally understand what a credit money system is. Debt means absolutely nothing without context, zip, nada, a zillion zingers on the books. Its only the rate of change that matters, and only in the context of inflation/deflation.

A credit money system by definition must always have debt, and to actually function, must increase "debt" endlessly. The national debt of Japan is their money supply. If the private sector does not increase the money supply by borrowing , then only da guberment can increase it by borrowing with the added in between of the actions of the central bank to buy or sell it. If you are going to make clam shells into a money supply, then you must have clam shells. If you are going to make debt into a money supply, than you sure better have debt.

Its how its "spent" that matters. Where Japan went wrong is that they didn't spend it on the tax payers by lowering taxes. Instead they created pork barrel projects.

If there is little private borrowing , then you must have a high GDP to public debt ratio, otherwise you get a depression.

Here is someone else who can't seem to figure out the mirror image.

How in debt is the typical Japanese household? | anarchy japan (http://www.anarchyjapan.com/how-debt-typical-japanese-household-653/ - broken link)

I think Japan's current record budget and massive government debt are very serious problems. Japan's ratio of government debt to GDP is the highest in the developed world. So, in no way do I want to say that this is some how okay or that people shouldn't be concerned with this.

...
Turning to the liability side, Japanese households have a smaller exposure to debt, such as home mortgages and consumer credit, than their Western counterparts. For example, home mortgages in Japan – the single largest component of household debt in Japan, as it is in most other countries – account for 12% of the financial balance sheet (debt plus financial surplus), about half as much as in France and Germany (28%), the United Kingdom (28%) and the United States (23%)."
And strangely Japan has double the debt to GDP ratios. Golly, what could it be Alice?

The only way to weaken the yen is debt from da guberment or business which keeps the task masters of their export economy happy at the expense of the worker slave.


Oh rejoice when we can balance the budget and start borrowing from banks again.....
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:14 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 10,040,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinglicious View Post
The American President with Democrats and Republicans voted just as the rest of the Americans who voted for them in the office. So America has voted - In Debt We Trust.
Yeah, been heading that way for decades -- We stepped in deep with Reaganomics -- that was all that was about -- Debt. And going deeper, since.

Quote:
Coming soon to the Federal Banks near you - USD would be printed as In Debt We Trust to replace In Cash We Trust in the dollar bill.
[/quote]

Hello? It has been that way for years, as well. Pull a Note -- Federal Reserve Note -- out of your pocket. Look at what it says -- it states the truth. It is a Note -- Says Federal Reserve Note, right? A note is just a debt.

Promissory note - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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