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Old 01-20-2009, 10:38 PM
 
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why do we owe all this money to foreigners like China?

I went to china around the mid-90's and it looked like pretty much like a third world with some modernization, but still a poor place, it was not a hell-hole but no cake walk either

Now I know many things we buy are made in China, but havent they gotten anything from us in return? Like almost anything modern that they have in China at this very moment

Maybe they made it all themselves, but someone had to teach them right?

Or did they just buy gov't bonds or T-bills? But where did they get all the money to buy that much?
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:58 PM
f_m
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Chutzpah View Post

Or did they just buy gov't bonds or T-bills? But where did they get all the money to buy that much?
If you look at the stats, in recent years the trade deficit between US and China is about $250 billion a year. $250 billion buys a lot of US bonds and properties.

FTD - Statistics - Country Data - U.S. Trade Balance with China
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:10 PM
 
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^^^

why was there such a huge trade deficit?

did we just not bargain greedily enough

I mean what did/do they have that we do not have?

We had everything they wanted, and now they have caught up on our arses somehow
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:26 PM
f_m
 
2,289 posts, read 7,805,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Chutzpah View Post
^^^

why was there such a huge trade deficit?

did we just not bargain greedily enough

I mean what did/do they have that we do not have?

We had everything they wanted, and now they have caught up on our arses somehow
Everyone's buying tons of junk I guess. Do you see anyone complaining about the lower price of computers?
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:29 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,306 posts, read 79,577,097 times
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free trade was a lie we did not sell stuff there. it was monster trade deficit from the get go we just opened up our markets to them sold out the american worker ripped off the public. there never was a free trade agreement there was a rip off agreement.
NAFTA is the same. go to home depot and smart and final in baja i was just there its empty. its always empty.
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
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Free trade. China costs are about 1/3 of American costs to make something. No regulations and no tariffs.
Corporations get to keep much more of the profit with having their goods made in China.

It's all about the bottom line.
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:37 PM
 
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The US is on the verge of bankruptcy. Obama was elected to take us through bankruptcy. Anyone dependent on the system for survival, good luck to you in the coming years! Good luck to everyone and may the best prepared survive!
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:00 AM
 
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China has the VAT tax and VAT rebates that act as tariffs. Semiconductor plants were getting -17% VAT discounts for exported products. Other countries do much the same.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:54 AM
 
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Ah China, the land of milk and honey.........I'm waiting to hear from the supply-side economic cheerleaders to explain to me how this globalized capitalistic corporate free-for-all is good for the proletariat, which used to encompass the bulk of the now virtually non-existent middle class? 'Cause I got a pretty good case study (our country, or is it?) that says otherwise. All I hear is 'race to the bottom' and the only people banking is the corporate structure, not the chinese labor (in the big picture) and certainly not american labor. Let's do the math:

So chinese labor is not better off, since they have to undercut us, and that comparative advantage is not valuable to the median american; i.e. Americans WILL torch the streets before they work for a 5 cents an hour (econ 101 failed to teach you that), unlike the chinese who are still marginally appeased by lower costs of living in china, though that will change. In the long term the marginal diminishing returns will converge to zero; i.e. long term both americans and chinese alike will share the same LOWER, not higher, quality of life and purchasing power. Ah the beauty of capitalism when you account for scarcity (little point your econ 101 class failed to stress).

Likewise, the american labor is clearly not better off, as we see in the siphoning of real wealth and exports in exchange for a lie of a service-economy debt currency ponzi scheme upward wealth redistribution (the real outcome of supply-side economics). As an added bonus you have the last bastions of suburban populace praising an MBA as their road to salvation and what makes them NOT part of the proletariat.. FAIL.... you will work 80 hours a week too, and like it.....

The only people people who are better off are the multinational corps. that rape the platform of law and order that America provides them with the sweat and blood of the tired and Fallen from 2 centuries ago in order to capitalize abroad. So yeah I'm waiting for the dissertation as to why we're all better off here on the labor side of the fence, I need a good laugh since I can't afford entertainment anymore, that went to a chinese guy who now can afford a watered down version of a buick (which we could have made here for him if he really wanted it that bad...get it?) Capitalism is great until you are confronted with the little sticking point that people insist on not being treated like commodities..
*guy in the cell phone commercial* "Ohh..what's a drag....duuude..."*/voice*

"Ugh, those socialist safety nets, they're such an economic inefficiency...." here's the Achilles' heel of America. There will come a time where so unsustainable is the "ideal" of shedding other people's blood and fighting other people's wars just so the upper 15th percentile of America can afford the new proverbial iPod and a waterfront property, that everybody is gonna end up with no iPod and no waterfront property. All for the small relative expense of a couple of "inefficiencies" in the capitalistic globalized wealth hoarding machine. I'm sick and tired of having my patriotism questioned because I disavow these globalized capitalism mantras of the ultra-rich and unattached. It's time we started questioning theirs. America not business friendly for you? Take a hike, I dare ya. Good luck doing business as usual in Pakistan where an Indian kicks a pebble past the border line and they aim glow sticks at each other faster than you can say "zero percent down on this new chevy...what?" China, the land of milk and honey alright....
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Old 01-21-2009, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 54,283,004 times
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Why do we owe China?

Hindsight - I wish I knew how to give you multiple REP points for your essay/rant. I agree completely.

You eloquently point out the great myth of the neocon supply siders that, unlike what they claim, international capital, even if nominally based in the USA is not really concerned with the conditions in the USA. Capitalism is not patriotic. It is not even restrained by law because it buys the lawmakers.

The main goal of our domestic policies since Ronnie Raygun and the conservative Revolution has been to put the burden of government on the working class and to bury the US in enough foreign debt that the government could not afford to keep, let alone expand, any programs that might help anyone but the warmongers and energy monopolists. They have nearly succeeded.

We need to revise the system with a counter revolution that enforces all anti-monopolist law and regulation to protect the real free market, institute countervailing tariffs that protects the wages of US workers and, most importantly reinstate a simplified form of the Federal income tax used in the late 1930's. We must never allow a financial bubble like the one that is currently bankrupting us to happen again. We must finance our growth on real savings paid real interest and protected by non inflation or slight deflation and not borrow from the rest of the world. We must repair our own house using funds taxed from our upper classes. We absolutely must divest ourselves of our failed empire. If our citizens want to invest in another country they are on their own. We should never use our Army to protect their investments. If US they want protected investments let them invest in their own country.

The OP was “why do we owe the Chinese?” We owe the Chinese and a whole lot of others because our conservative governments decided to borrow money for their military extravaganzas instead of collecting the funds from their people. If they had taxed the upper 0.5% for the spending that money would not have been available for real estate speculation or world domination. We owe the Chinese because a bunch of greedy state capitalists decide to borrow and borrow and spend and spend unlike truly conservative folks that would have either taxed the country for the spending or simply not spent the money.

They deliberately that literally took money from the needy and gave to the prosperous. It was market capitalism for the poor and secure socialism for the rich. Smart of them and a disaster for the rest of us and for our country.
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