U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-21-2009, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Chino, CA
1,458 posts, read 3,059,480 times
Reputation: 555

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
The US is probably the only country where the poor drive their cars to the laundramat.
I don't know, but somehow I think the upper middle and the upper classes grossly overestimate the buying power of the lower middle and the poor.

Relatively speaking.... I would hope the poor in the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world would have it better than most. Sadly, I think the poor in Canada, Europe, Japan, and the rest of the Developed world more than likely have it better than the poor here.

-chuck22b
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-21-2009, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 5,003,724 times
Reputation: 979
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck22b View Post
I don't know, but somehow I think the upper middle and the upper classes grossly overestimate the buying power of the lower middle and the poor.

Relatively speaking.... I would hope the poor in the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world would have it better than most. Sadly, I think the poor in Canada, Europe, Japan, and the rest of the Developed world more than likely have it better than the poor here.

-chuck22b
I don't know the statistics on that--I've only been to Europe and Japan as a tourist, not as someone studing their economics or culture. I've been to China, Russia, Latvia, Sweeden, South Korea, and a bunch of South American/Latin American countries. Everywhere I've been it SEEMS to be that the American poor are better off....but, again, using my anecdotal knowledge is really a poor way to make statements. ...but I guess that is what I did. I know better. Shame on me.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2009, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Castle Hills
1,133 posts, read 2,422,985 times
Reputation: 611
"It's the monopolies, uber rich (upper 5% percentile), that really control the game. Upper middle class is nothing. Your wealth most likely still relies on an income and can easily be taken away."

I'm not even in upper middle class with the money my family makes but I assure you the money we have saved up can not be easily taken away. We have lived within our means for many years and have positioned ourselves to withstand just about anything. We have one major debt and thats our mortgage. We attack it like crazy though.

Everyone in our income range should live similar to us but we find the MAJORITY do not. We don't depend on the government to bail us out, we know the government is corrupt and do all we can to change it but are realistic when it comes to dramatic change. The middle class does not know how to make necessary sacrifices and with the economy close to a depression these people will suffer tremendously. We will suffer too because of this depression (That was brought on by over consumption) but we are prepared for it when the majority of our counterparts are not.

My point to this thread was... basically people do not know how to sacrifice and also do not truly know what being poor is. I truly believe the majority can get out there and make it in life. The lady in the video I posted was out of her mind and was in no position to be writing books. She had no clue what sacrificing means and they are making her books "required" reading? Thats laughable and even sad.

I'm reading this book "Scratch beginnings" and it is eye opening to say the least. This kid is living in a homeless shelter and he has a TON of support around to get him on his feet. He buys his clothes at goodwill (Name brand clothes for $2 $3 etc), he gets free meals at the shelter, they can work every single day at labor ready (rip off company but it puts $30 or $40+ a day in their pockets per day) Plus they have people who try to find him full time work where he can make decent money. I'm only half way through the book but its very informative. A solid read IMO.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2009, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Florida
21,124 posts, read 22,074,701 times
Reputation: 25622
That book and the example in it is useless when this is a too-popular attitude.......


"you shouldn't have had to make your own clothes, grow your own garden, wear rags or use rags, and scrimp every penny, take the bus, etc. in this modern society to barely scrape up a bare resemblance of a middle class life style. "
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2009, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Castle Hills
1,133 posts, read 2,422,985 times
Reputation: 611
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
That book and the example in it is useless when this is a too-popular attitude.......


"you shouldn't have had to make your own clothes, grow your own garden, wear rags or use rags, and scrimp every penny, take the bus, etc. in this modern society to barely scrape up a bare resemblance of a middle class life style. "
You are exactly right. I just left you a positive rep.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2009, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,415,446 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
That is just not true....the statistics simplly do not support it...whether you use mean, medaian income statistics or average home size, or number of televisions..
Yeah, actually it is true. Did you just ignore my post? Americans are more educated, and MORE productive then ever, yet the median individual income has went up about $1,000 in real income over the past 40 years.

Lets play the logic game......what happens when you spend $20,000 to get a degree, and it nets you $1,000 more a year then a high school grad in 1969? Unless your education payments come to $1,000 a year, you have a lower standard of living, period.

As for the TVs, how the hell can you judge personal "wealth" by depreciating assets purchased largely on consumer debt? How is it logical to say, because the average person in 2009 has negative savings, and 10k in credit card debt, they are better off then a person in 1969, because they have more junk.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
But that doesn't change the fact that the middle class is both larger in number now, has more income, and is doing well. What the problem is that the middle class is smaller in percentage of the whole population. The middle class is NOT going away. Saying so is just meaningless media hype. The middle class is growing in number. The middle class is shrinking as a percentage of the population.

1. The middle class is growing in number and shrinking as a percent of the population? Not even addressing the fact that this is outright false. Who cares about raw numbers, they arent applicable, its always about percents. If 90 percent of people are in poverty, I could care less if the sample is 10 or 10 billion, 90 percent are still in poverty.

2. What part of the the definition of GINI index are you missing? What part of the mean and median wage gaps and their comparison are you missing?

When the gap between mean income is 10 times the gap in median income, THAT means that the upper classes are pulling away from from the lower classes, and at normally at the expense of the lower classes.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2009, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,415,446 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
I NEVER said that the middle class was growing as a fraction of the society. I said it has more wealth now. If you want to take those statements and refute them, you cannot do so with the data you've presented. By the way, as I said before, my data comes from the census bureau and the bureau of labor statistics.
Funny, I never saw anything in your posts addressing the debt load of today compared to 30 years ago. Nor did I see anything about "wealth".

What I did see was a household income argument out of context which was officially destroyed by several posters.

Your further arguments are simply a case of you not accepting the fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
A bell curve doesn't really work with incomes unless you eliminate the very wealthy and the very poor...and in doing so you end up with a truly goofy statistical analysis--one not founded in any sort of reality. Gaussian statistics simply do a poor job of analyzing income. A better statistical tool is non-parametric statistics. Unfortunately, non-parametric statistics are usually not taught in introductory statistics classes--unless you take the course that I teach at the university.

Mean and median should be very close if income distribution is truely equivalent, and mean should be pulling towards median if the middle class is widening, this would create a bigger bell curve in the middle. If mean is pulling away from median, you will see a curve EXACTLY like is portrayed.

You're right, you cant really use a "normal distribution", assumption so to speak, because the figures are not truely independent (the more income at the higher ends the lower and more excessive the tailing curve). However, that would assume that you are creating a statistical prediction model. This is NOT what he is doing here. He is simply illustrating data with this graph, and it is doing a perfect job of that.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2009, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,415,446 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
This is why "personal responsibilty" is soooooooooo important. We ALL have to learn how to take responsibility for ourselves in such a manner that as individuals we cannot be "defeated." Only by doing this will we be able to prosper. We may be mad as hell, but we've finally learned, that nobody's going to help. If we are going to prosper--it will be because we did it--on our own--without help.
And those that no doubt must fail as you take a bigger portion of the left over scraps?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2009, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,415,446 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
That book and the example in it is useless when this is a too-popular attitude.......


"you shouldn't have had to make your own clothes, grow your own garden, wear rags or use rags, and scrimp every penny, take the bus, etc. in this modern society to barely scrape up a bare resemblance of a middle class life style. "

This would be acceptable if the US did not have over half of the worlds billionaires......

When someone makes this argument, this means thats its rediculous, in the USA, where there is more wealth then any other country, that we have citizens living at the level of the lower classes of much poorer countries.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2009, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,415,446 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
The US is probably the only country where the poor drive their cars to the laundramat.
Its also the only country where 10% of the country owns multiple houses.

Its all in perspective. Just because our poor are not on the level of Indias poor, does NOT mean thats what we should aspire to be.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top