U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-17-2009, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 5,001,869 times
Reputation: 979

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Indexing the middle class to an era like the 50's and 60's is badly flawed. This requires a complete freeze on innovation and makes as much sense as comparing a middle class to ancient Egypt.So the metric is what are the percentages of the consumption of output created by the society? If 90% of the output goes to 1% its not a society with a middle class
Nice post....do you know what that metric is, and how it has chaged over the last 100 years? I don't know.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-17-2009, 06:11 PM
 
Location: USA
3,966 posts, read 9,833,342 times
Reputation: 2216
Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
My son worked all last summer for Hobby Lobby, as a grounds keeper in Oklahoma City for $11.50 a hour. His only education is a GED. Here in OKC that provided him with a nice apartment, money for his car payment and insurance, as well as his other expenses. He saved enough to put himself into trade school this year.

Sorry, the American Dream is not dead. But of course for those who insist it is, it probably is.
I would say in bigger cities or states like NYC or California, it is. I would never be able to do any of that on 11.50 an hour in Sacramento, let alone afford a 1 bedroom apartment by myself in NYC.

As far as the comment about the middle class doesn't matter, that is completely wrong, any country needs it's worker bee's to survive. If you want to be something more then the collective, you can be. That's the beauty of living in a civilized country.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-17-2009, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 18,928,405 times
Reputation: 16881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
What kind of job can an average Joe get without any experience or education....if you guessed, a McJob, you got it.

By the way, you now bring up homeless shelters......you obviously are aware that these are not available outside of decent sized cities right?
They are a NIMBY. They attract "bad people" and maybe remind those who have homes of the much closer chances of joining the people on the streets. The one I spent time at was in a fairly okay part of town (wouldn't go to the others, not safe for a single woman at night there) and the police wouldn't let cars remained parked past the time people left. This violated the cities own laws, and it was only about a three block area where there was very little traffic. When my car broke down, while I was waiting for a friend to come look at it, and despite signs on it I was afraid it might get towed.

Also right now, the shelters for women and children are turning away minimum of 100 families or women a day. That leaves them on the street. The meals served are overwhelmed and run out. This guy who stayed at a shelter while waiting out for a specific job would now be taking the place of someone who would take anything. Or more likely he'd be sleeping in the park.

This guy did this in a time when shelter space was available and I'll bet there were more jobs. One job as a janitor got 5,000 applications last week. I suspect it wouldn't be nearly as simple now.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-18-2009, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,410,069 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
My son worked all last summer for Hobby Lobby, as a grounds keeper in Oklahoma City for $11.50 a hour. His only education is a GED. Here in OKC that provided him with a nice apartment, money for his car payment and insurance, as well as his other expenses. He saved enough to put himself into trade school this year.

Sorry, the American Dream is not dead. But of course for those who insist it is, it probably is.

$11.50 an hour.....are you kidding me? Do you know what kind of housing you can afford in the Norfolk, VA area on $11.50 an hour (thats assuming you ever find a groundskeeping job for $11.50 an hour here)? You might be able to slide in to a bullet ridden apartment in a section 8 area for over 50% of your net income (thats before any utilities). You would be able to afford absolutely nothing in NORVA, NYC, Miami, basically the whole of the west coast and New England, etc etc. Unless of course you lived about 10 to a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment.

OKC happens to be one of the lower cost of living to wage cities in the country, and thats the ONLY reason why your son can afford housing on a McJob.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-18-2009, 10:12 AM
 
Location: In My Own Little World. . .
3,238 posts, read 8,212,477 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
$11.50 an hour.....are you kidding me? Do you know what kind of housing you can afford in the Norfolk, VA area on $11.50 an hour (thats assuming you ever find a groundskeeping job for $11.50 an hour here)? You might be able to slide in to a bullet ridden apartment in a section 8 area for over 50% of your net income (thats before any utilities). You would be able to afford absolutely nothing in NORVA, NYC, Miami, basically the whole of the west coast and New England, etc etc. Unless of course you lived about 10 to a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment.

OKC happens to be one of the lower cost of living to wage cities in the country, and thats the ONLY reason why your son can afford housing on a McJob.
You're completely missing the point of the young man's book "Scratch Beginnings." But I'm sure the dream is dead for you, and for that you have my sympathy.

However, I am done with this whole discussion. Tired of banging my head against the wall.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-18-2009, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,410,069 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
You're completely missing the point of the young man's book "Scratch Beginnings." But I'm sure the dream is dead for you, and for that you have my sympathy.

However, I am done with this whole discussion. Tired of banging my head against the wall.

I think its me who is banging on the wall.

What you cant understand at all, is that what he did, is NOT a reality in many peoples situations. It is reality for a healthy white male, from a stable house, in the deep south. If you cant understand the inherent fallacy of trying to protract that on all people, then there is no sense in trying to even talk to you.

The "point" of his book in his own words is to show people there is hope......how exactly does a story of "hope" have any value to people who cannot possibly identify with it? How do you think some minority kid in the inner city of New York is going to look at that? Oh look, some white kid, who lives a thousand miles away in a snazy suburb "decided" to be poor, got a job for $11.50 that actually could pay the bills, and wrote a book about it......
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-18-2009, 11:22 AM
 
13,685 posts, read 23,903,923 times
Reputation: 13986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
$11.50 an hour.....are you kidding me? Do you know what kind of housing you can afford in the Norfolk, VA area on $11.50 an hour (thats assuming you ever find a groundskeeping job for $11.50 an hour here)? You might be able to slide in to a bullet ridden apartment in a section 8 area for over 50% of your net income (thats before any utilities). You would be able to afford absolutely nothing in NORVA, NYC, Miami, basically the whole of the west coast and New England, etc etc.
I have some friends who work for a small commuter airline out of Norfolk and starting pay was around $12/hr, they lived in decent places. They split apartments or larger houses on the beach with their buddies (2-3 to a house).

My wife and I both made $12/hr in 2005, we had a nice apartment in a very safe part of Virginia Beach. We were also able to save and get ahead, and eventually moved to Raleigh to escape the insane runup in housing and bought a place for about what we paid for rent up there.

I think you are being over dramatic.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-18-2009, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,410,069 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup View Post
I have some friends who work for a small commuter airline out of Norfolk and starting pay was around $12/hr, they lived in decent places. They split apartments or larger houses on the beach with their buddies (2-3 to a house).

My wife and I both made $12/hr in 2005, we had a nice apartment in a very safe part of Virginia Beach. We were also able to save and get ahead, and eventually moved to Raleigh to escape the insane runup in housing and bought a place for about what we paid for rent up there.

I think you are being over dramatic.

1. You and your wife both made $12 an hour, so, how exactly is that equivalent to one person making $11.50 an hour? Further more, how is one person making $12 an hour 4 years ago, equivalent to $11.50 an hour now? Especially when housing costs have risen 20-50% in the area over that period of time?

2. The cheapest apartments in Va Beach are right around $600 for 1 bedroom, and those ARE in bad areas. That does not include utilities. I pay about $150-300 a month in utilities for about a 900sqft house, that is 79 in the summer, and 66 in the winter.

3. $11.50 an hour, 40 hours a week, thats about $1990 a month, thats about $1400 a month after taxes. So, let me just do a little math, $600+$150, $750 a month.....is, or is that NOT over 50% of $1400? In the winter, you can be prepaired to spend 60-65% of your income on rent and utilities.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-18-2009, 01:17 PM
 
19,346 posts, read 16,976,749 times
Reputation: 7517
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Nice post....do you know what that metric is, and how it has chaged over the last 100 years? I don't know.
Hi dcashley,

I suppose it is a matter of choosing a reasonable metric not to mention what the real implications are. One may be wealth distribution. What are the implications of improving living standards and increasing wealth gaps? Of course now its an increasing wealth gap and decreasing living standards. I would gather that we are looking at two different things. One is physical living standards while the other is an issue of relative control and freedom with respect to wealth distributions. I would submit a wealth concentration is a degree of control. Those are distinctions I would make.

Perhaps even a better metric is can we afford our own output? I would say Ford giving a wage to allow workers to purchase their own labor is a notable shift towards what we call a middle class, for example, by a consume your own labor metric. Servants maids and butlers cannot afford to consume their own output. Societies were this is prevalent indicate underclass. Consider what kind of society would it be that those that build a house cannot afford them. That has to be a measure indicating underclass. A slave for example does not consume their own output.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-18-2009, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 5,001,869 times
Reputation: 979
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi dcashley,

I suppose it is a matter of choosing a reasonable metric not to mention what the real implications are. One may be wealth distribution. What are the implications of improving living standards and increasing wealth gaps? Of course now its an increasing wealth gap and decreasing living standards. I would gather that we are looking at two different things. One is physical living standards while the other is an issue of relative control and freedom with respect to wealth distributions. I would submit a wealth concentration is a degree of control. Those are distinctions I would make.

Perhaps even a better metric is can we afford our own output? I would say Ford giving a wage to allow workers to purchase their own labor is a notable shift towards what we call a middle class, for example, by a consume your own labor metric. Servants maids and butlers cannot afford to consume their own output. Societies were this is prevalent indicate underclass. Consider what kind of society would it be that those that build a house cannot afford them. That has to be a measure indicating underclass. A slave for example does not consume their own output.
Well put. Nicely thought out. I like income distribution--that is simple enough for everyone to understand. What about amout of leisure time--that is also a factor--but maybe its more of a quality of life factor than "middle-classness", so to speak. Income distribution should be easy to find off of google...
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top