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Old 05-31-2009, 05:29 PM
 
975 posts, read 1,750,115 times
Reputation: 524

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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
oh please, this is not rocket science and the illegal immigration issue is not that hard of a fix. they marched across our borders and they can just march right back. we could use the troops that we did not send to afghanistan to secure the border and that would boost employment. cut off all economic incentives for illegal immigration and all free health care for illegal immigrants and a lot of them would go back of their own free will without the united states having to spend any money. we could end birthright citizenship for children of illegal immigrants with legislation and reject any form of amnesty for illegal immigrants. we could place a moratorium on temporary worker and guest worker legislation until illegal immigration has been brought under control and our employment rates start to improve. when you have working americans and full employment, you can easily see your way clear to a lot of the other issues that face this country. we could stop funding any government program or agreement, such as the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP) and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), that would lead to the creation of an open borders North American Union (NAU), and that would save some money as well.

Still pretty short on specifics for someone who wants transparency.

SO you'e going to put troops on the border. What are their instructions? Shoot to kill or take prisoner's? If it's shoot to kill how will you deal with the international and domestic fallout? If it's taking prisoner's where you going to put them? At what cost? How are you going to pass this through Congress? Since the prisons are already over crowded are you sure there's enough room? WHat if someone on the Mexico side shoot's a US solider? You going to invade Mexico and start a war in our own backyard?

No healtcare either, huh? Not that I disagree but do you think letting people die is going to be popular? And what happens when a mistake is made and the guy who dies was actually a legal? Speaking of legal, how much are we going to spend on all the inevietable lawsuits your plan will generate?

Get's a little more complicated when you get into the details, doesn't it? Perhaps you have some work still left before your plan is actually viable in the real world.
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Old 05-31-2009, 05:38 PM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,869,886 times
Reputation: 4459
what are you talking about? you have illegals suing hospitals now so any change will still be an improvement. in florida, we have a drunken illegal who fell off a roof, injuring himself to the tune of over 1 million dollars in healthcare costs, and is now suing. i am not in charge, but these are just common sense steps to head in the right direction. i have news for you. the cantarell oil fields are drying up (that is a fact) and mexico is headed for even harder times. we cannot be the safety valve for their failed government policies at the expense of our own citizens. my plan is just an outline but it is SURE BETTER THAN DOING NOTHING or actually talking about assimilating them. how do YOU propose to pay for all of their healthcare needs, as well as our own, in our currently bankrupt country?
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:50 PM
 
975 posts, read 1,750,115 times
Reputation: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
how do YOU propose to pay for all of their healthcare needs, as well as our own, in our currently bankrupt country?
I don't claim to be smart enough to know the answers to all our problems. But I am smart enough to realize these problems are extremely complicated and any solutions need to not only solve the intended problem but minimize the unintended consquences. Also, the solutions are going to have not only be effective, but take into account the needs. wants and ideals of a great number of people who are not like minded as well.

Personally, I wouldn't be in favor of tariffs because ulitmately they would backfire and create more problems than they would solve and history is pretty clear about that. I'm not sure immigration would be at the top of my list either right now given all the other issue's we have.

Healthcare though seems like it has to be dealt with, imo, but I haven't ever claimed to know the magic answer. I just know that an employer based healthcare system isn't working very well with respect to insurance and it's my opinion that whether someone is rich or poor providing them with health coverage seems appropriate even though I can easily pay for my own.

The essence of my point though is simply that there are no easy solutions. The devil is in the details as they say.
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Old 05-31-2009, 08:52 PM
 
14,249 posts, read 17,867,883 times
Reputation: 13807
The taxpayer is already paying 50% of health care costs. The fig-leaf of a private health care system means that, for the other 50%, individuals pay far more than any other country in the world. The government doesn't even leverage its spending power to get a good deal like the Canadian or British governments do. This is one area where we do need government control or, at the very least, a complete change in how we manage health-care in this country.
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Old 05-31-2009, 11:16 PM
 
Location: SC
9,101 posts, read 16,408,489 times
Reputation: 3619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traderx View Post
I don't claim to be smart enough to know the answers to all our problems. But I am smart enough to realize these problems are extremely complicated and any solutions need to not only solve the intended problem but minimize the unintended consquences. Also, the solutions are going to have not only be effective, but take into account the needs. wants and ideals of a great number of people who are not like minded as well.

Personally, I wouldn't be in favor of tariffs because ulitmately they would backfire and create more problems than they would solve and history is pretty clear about that. I'm not sure immigration would be at the top of my list either right now given all the other issue's we have.

Healthcare though seems like it has to be dealt with, imo, but I haven't ever claimed to know the magic answer. I just know that an employer based healthcare system isn't working very well with respect to insurance and it's my opinion that whether someone is rich or poor providing them with health coverage seems appropriate even though I can easily pay for my own.

The essence of my point though is simply that there are no easy solutions. The devil is in the details as they say.
I can tell you what should be done about Healthcare:

1) Actually ENCOURAGE and stop maligning REAL HEALTH CARE or natural medicine,offered only by trained naturopathic physicians (with 4-6 years of graduate work in medical school just like conventional medical doctors get).
  • Natural medicine is available on a level playing field, on a par with conventional medicine in other developed countries which may very well explain their per capita expenditure on health care is generally in the range of 30 to 50% of what ours is and they have MORE to show for it in a much healthier geriatric population AND much lower mortality rates prior to age 60 than we have according to the World Health Organization statisics.
  • Naturopaths study CAUSES of disease and by being able to determine the cause and eliminate it, they can totally eliminate chronic and degenerative diseases including all the so-called "incurable" ones and restore people to robust health. People in other countries realize this and don't waste a lot of time and money going to M.Ds who aren't the real experts when it comes to knowing how to help a person with a chronic or degenerative disease.
2)People need to understand that the strength of allopathic medical doctors is for their training in Acute Care in Traumatic life or death situations.
they can stabilize a patient and save his or her life in a life or death situation. Their WEAKNESS is zero understanding of chronic and degenerative diseases --except to hand out a prescription drug to cover up the symptoms or cut out the diseased organ with no understanding of what caused it to become diseased in the first place.
  • If people realized the difference between the two kinds of medicines, they'd be running to their Naturopathic Doctors N.D's to learn what they need to do to get OFF their prescriptions and to actually restore their robust health and limit visits to their M.Ds for emergency situations only.
  • By being HONEST about the options available and by helping people get healthy, we'd have ZERO crisis. However, the down side would be the medical establishment and the pharmaceutical industry might not be as profitable.
  • Stop requiring vaccinations for school enrollment and going to medical doctors for prevatative care. This is aonther area where Naturopathic doctors excel.
  • Let the parent decide if they want to jeopardize their child's immune system and risk dangerous long term side effects from too many vaccinations. We'd have fewer kids with ADD and ADHD and Autism and devastating nervous system disorders that manifest all too often from the vaccinations.
3) Another thing people need to realize is that government involvement in health insurance just mucks it up.
  • The WORST RUN states when it comes to healthcare are mostly all in the Northeast-- the ones that Obama wants to model a national program after. They are NJ, NY, MA, RI. VT. ME. These states have all felt that they can force insurance companies to jump through hoops and it hasn't worked. In Massachusetts, now there is little choice. Some deductibles are even ILLEGAL if you can imagine that. There are only one or two national health insurers that even offer their products in Massachusetts to small businesses. All the rest are state based HMOs.
  • Since there is no competition, health insurance costs are equivalent to mortgage payments. The situation in New York and New Jersey is equally bad if not worse. Rhode Island only once had dozens of health insurers for individuals and small groups. Now it has just one for individuals and one other ones (2) for small businesses. The others all left when the legislative and regulatory environment got so bad they couldn't tolerate it. What states need to do is NOT use any of these states as models but instead see what states with the most insurers and lowest rates are doing as far as regulating the business.
  • It turns out that less regulation means more choices at a LOT lower cost and high risk health insurance pools ensure that the private market can offer great rates to the relataively healthy and the high consumers of medical care if they aren't already insured can get their coverage through a high risk health insurance pool.
4) Educate small business owners and consumers who have to pay for their own health insurance that a Co-Pay plan is a WASTE of money and HORRIBLE protection.
  • If you are paying $1000 per month for a co-pay plan with a $1000 deductible per person up to three in a family and a $20 office visit co-pay with $20/$35/$50 Rx co-pays, if one person in your family gets sick and has ten of the most expensive Rx drugs, that is going to set you back $500 per month or $6000 per year for one person's Rx co-pays. If you have to meet the deductibles AND pay for more co-pays for more prescriptions in the family you'd be out another $3000 for the deductibles PLUS UNLIMITED CO-PAYS ON TOP of a HIGHER premium than the smarter better lesser popular plan below.
  • You'd be MUCH better off choosing a Health Savings Account High Deductible plan with a $5000 family deductible and a premium that is $600 instead of $1000 which saves you $4800 per year in insurance premiums -- enough to cover your entire deductible except for $200! AND be covered 100% for all your prescriptions once you mee the deductible.
  • Worst Case Scenario the HSA plan sets you back a total of your deductible ($5000) and your premiums of $7200 or $12,000 -- less tax savings. Worst Case Scenario for the more popular office visit co-pay plan is $12,000 just for premiums PLU $3000 in deductibles PLUS UNLIMITED CO-PAYS which could easily add THOUSANDS of DOLLARS!
5)Unfortunately Americans are way too emotional when it comes to Health Care. LOOK AT IT LIKE A FINANCIAL PRODUCT THAT IT IS. Does your auto insurance cover an oil change??? (No) Does your homeowners insurance cover a heater tune up?? (No). Insurance -- ALL INSURANCE is supposed to be for protection againsnt major disasters NOT daily needs. Just changing to a sensible old fashioned kind of health insurance where once you meet your deductible and/or out of pocket maximum, you are covered 100% for everything to $2 million or more would save everyone 40% of their insurance costs AND give them BETTER protection! There is actually additional tax savings with a health savings account that people would realize that I won't go into here.

Learning how to choose an APPROPRIATE doctor for the TYPE of problem you have; learning how to choose the best type of health insurance plan(not what so-called "experts" have been touting) and simply having states emulate the states with the lowest rates of uninsured and the most health insurance choice and best rates would go a LOOOONNNNGG way towards eliminating the healthcare crisis and best of all , these are NO COST suggestions that will actually immediately improve not only cash flow and savings but people's health as they FINALLY get HEALTHY enough so they don't need their prescription drugs for the rest of their lives.

More spending on so called "health care" is throwing good money after bad. Rather what we need is to direct fewer dollars to medical practitioners who are properly trained to help us as Europeans and Asians do. The reason other developed countries are healthier than we are is not due to having a government payor of insurance but rather due to the fact that cost effective appropriate care is used regardless of who pays. If dollars spent was a direct correlation to imporved heath we'd be by FAR the healthiest nation on earth instead of nearing close to the bottom and spending 2 or three times per capita what other countries spend.

As a long time independent health insurance agent and registerned health underwriter who has taken thousands of health histories;a past volunteer lobbyist for health insurance agents and an avid health care researcher and long time user of natural medicine myself I have in depth knowledge and experience of the above. .

Last edited by emilybh; 05-31-2009 at 11:50 PM..
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Old 06-01-2009, 02:34 AM
 
28,107 posts, read 63,466,347 times
Reputation: 23225
I remember... or at least I think I do... Health Insurance was at one time catastrophic coverage. In other words, it was coverage so you wouldn't break the bank...

I think later it was called major medical and now it's just Health Insurance...

It continually amazes me how many never ask the Doctor Office in advance about cost...

I don't get the oil changed in my car without asking how much it is and they have to give me an estimate by law in my State.

Many just say... I'm covered... and don't give it another thought

As a family, we never had Health Insurance until the 1970's... Mom and Dad paid at the office and made installment payments if necessary...
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,222,269 times
Reputation: 27718
Ultra..I remember when you only had insurance to cover hospital stays. Doctor visits you paid for yourself as well as prescriptions.
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:04 AM
 
12,867 posts, read 14,869,886 times
Reputation: 4459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traderx View Post
I don't claim to be smart enough to know the answers to all our problems. But I am smart enough to realize these problems are extremely complicated and any solutions need to not only solve the intended problem but minimize the unintended consquences. Also, the solutions are going to have not only be effective, but take into account the needs. wants and ideals of a great number of people who are not like minded as well.

Personally, I wouldn't be in favor of tariffs because ulitmately they would backfire and create more problems than they would solve and history is pretty clear about that. I'm not sure immigration would be at the top of my list either right now given all the other issue's we have.

Healthcare though seems like it has to be dealt with, imo, but I haven't ever claimed to know the magic answer. I just know that an employer based healthcare system isn't working very well with respect to insurance and it's my opinion that whether someone is rich or poor providing them with health coverage seems appropriate even though I can easily pay for my own.

The essence of my point though is simply that there are no easy solutions. The devil is in the details as they say.
i am curious how you think tariffs would backfire on the united states. the root problem in this country is the job situation and deteriorating pay scale for those jobs. you absolutely have to address the core problem if you ever are gong to have a sustainable economic recovery. you cannot load a huge number of mostly unskilled workers into a system with a smaller manufacturing base. that has to be addressed by someone. you also have to address the worker visa issue when you have over 500,000 jobs a month being lost. we have enough of a worker base to support our economy without importing labor, although i am sure that our current government thinks otherwise. all of this talk about healthcare right now is just a diversion from the job issue, which should be the primary focus. you can't do anything with health care until you have a healthy economic base first, otherwise how will you fund it?
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,887 posts, read 17,142,467 times
Reputation: 3701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
I remember... or at least I think I do... Health Insurance was at one time catastrophic coverage. In other words, it was coverage so you wouldn't break the bank...
I remember those days. The problem now is that health care is considered by some to be a "right" or "entitlement" and they expect that you and I will pay for theirs if they can't afford it. This type of thinking marks a huge shift in the role and structure of government, and is unsustainable over the long run.
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Old 06-01-2009, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Rockland County New York
2,984 posts, read 5,844,021 times
Reputation: 1298
What's going to happen when we start printing and lending another $50 billion dollars to the new government motors corporation? So basically when this new company goes into default the government will continue to pump more worthless dollars into it? What will it mean to the value to our currency, especially when the government is now collecting 34% less tax revenue than it did in 2007 and 2008?
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