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Old 06-04-2009, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,240,104 times
Reputation: 4343

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
user_id, that might be fine if someone is starting out but if these are ex-auto industry folks then they probably have higher debts.
If they are in debt that is their problem.
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Old 06-04-2009, 06:56 PM
 
369 posts, read 405,363 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Its really odd how hostile this forum is to free-markets and the rights of businesses.

Now, if a business is getting plenty of applications from folks when offering $12/hour why in the world would they pay more?!?! That would be insane. Its as if you guys think the business has some sort of obligation to pay above market rates for labor. Should it also pay more 20% extra for its steal and equipment just to be nice? Are you going to pay 20% more for their products just to be nice? Such nonsense.

Also ,these plants are in the mid-west. $24/year in the mid-west can easily afford a "middle-class" lifestyle! Lets break it down, say its a family of 4. They can buy a modest family home for $60k (these are a dime and dozen in the rust-belt, even in the bigger cities). They will pay virtually no taxes, just social security so after tax income is $22,300k, or $1,850/month.

Housing.............$600
Food.................$500 (Obviously assuming home cooked meals)
Utils..................$200 (average, less in summer, more in winter)
Health care........$200 (Assuming, they get benefits, but have some out-of-pocket)
Car...................$200 (Averaging)
Clothes..............$50 (averaging)
Total.................$1,750

That leaves $100/month for savings. If the wife works part time, then anything she makes will be additional savings. Anyhow, this would of course involve a lot of sacrifices, at least in the shortest term. But in what sense is it not "middle-class"?

Also, as the article states the $12/hour is the starting pay. As workers gain more skills and become more valuable their pay goes up. But even the starting pay is doable with sacrifices.



how did you come up with 1850? Im figuring around 1600 to 1700 a month.

also the 12 an hour will not be a starting point but will probably be the norm. the way our country has declared war on the middle class why would employers give raises when they could hire someonoe else for cheaper?
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:40 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,240,104 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyne View Post
how did you come up with 1850? Im figuring around 1600 to 1700 a month.
$22,300/12 = $1,858. Depending on the state it could be more like $1,800.

But actually, I forgot to include earned income credits. They should get a good $2,400 or so from this. So their monthly income would be more like $2,000~$2,050.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyne View Post
also the 12 an hour will not be a starting point but will probably be the norm. the way our country has declared war on the middle class why would employers give raises when they could hire someonoe else for cheaper?
The article says its starting pay and mentions a plant that pays $20/hour for its skilled workers. War on the middle-class? How is businesses not over paying for labor war on the middle-class?

There is no war on the middle-class, just rent-seeking laborers.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,425,753 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Its really odd how hostile this forum is to free-markets and the rights of businesses.

Now, if a business is getting plenty of applications from folks when offering $12/hour why in the world would they pay more?!?! That would be insane. Its as if you guys think the business has some sort of obligation to pay above market rates for labor. Should it also pay more 20% extra for its steal and equipment just to be nice? Are you going to pay 20% more for their products just to be nice? Such nonsense.

Its not about rights here, the companies should have the decency to pay their employees a living wage. Americans were happy and had a loyalty to their employer when their employer took care of them. It was not always about what decision made the most profit. US industry can take a page from Japan and many large European companies on that.


Because competition has been choked off in most fields, there is far less room for entrepreneurs in the industry. Therefore, more Americans are forced under economic duress to sell their labor. Obviously, this is creating situations like you point out, hundreds of people applying for crap jobs. Is it good corporate practice to take advantage of that? Is treating labor like a commodity and nothing more good for America?


Oh, by the way, we as Americans, saw little to no price benefit from the wholesale exportation of our manufacturing jobs overseas. When Levis went over seas, when Wrangler started importing....did we see an immediate price cut? No, we didnt. The scratch went to the top, likely in some CEO's incentive package. So you can come off the "would you pay 20% extra speel".
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Old 06-05-2009, 08:03 AM
 
10,971 posts, read 8,943,029 times
Reputation: 9833
Auto factory jobs no longer pay those wages for starting workers. It's now around 14 to 17 dollars an hour.
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Old 06-05-2009, 08:31 AM
 
369 posts, read 405,363 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
$22,300/12 = $1,858. Depending on the state it could be more like $1,800.

But actually, I forgot to include earned income credits. They should get a good $2,400 or so from this. So their monthly income would be more like $2,000~$2,050.


The article says its starting pay and mentions a plant that pays $20/hour for its skilled workers. War on the middle-class? How is businesses not over paying for labor war on the middle-class?

There is no war on the middle-class, just rent-seeking laborers.


No offense Im not sure how you get your numbers? I was being really liberal with my $1600 to $1700. How many people are you claiming on your w4's for this scenario?

I actually moved out to Arizona for a $12 a hour job so I can back my experience with fact can you? I will look for my old paystubs to see what my take home pay was.

I couldnt stay out there because I couldnt afford to. Also rent at least in Arizona was more than $600 a month unless you sign a 2 year lease. Also how much would furniture cost? You forgot to add car insurance, gasoline to your montly budget. On top of that what kind of car could you get for 200 a month? I drive a Yaris and my car payment is $286.

So your numbers in my opinion are way off.


As far as war not being declared on the middle class, do you think the middle class is prospering?
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Old 06-05-2009, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 24,752,481 times
Reputation: 4969
What a concept, wages falling while inflation rages up. No wonder I see real estate continuing to lose value in the years ahead. If big Government could be eliminated, it would be easy for workers to start their own businesses and stop the decline of the middle class.
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Old 06-05-2009, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,090 posts, read 11,198,620 times
Reputation: 4118
$12 an hour isn't that bad compared to the minimum wage slave food service and retail jobs about at entry level. Outside of union manufacturing, from the stories I hear about how various members in my family struggled right out of college and worked hard to get where they are now, and it doesn't sound much different then what is happening now (save without the student loans, which are killers). Money has lost value, and more people are trying to get those low skill jobs so the rate has gone down...but one shouldn't get to just show up and expect to be handed good money.

You can't start at the level their parents are ending at, and I would include myself in one of those who wish they could, your position is determined at what level of effort you will put into it. "Green" jobs have suffered a good bit because if you were seen as making a good living while doing it, you were shunned for being a sellout...which has hurt making a good living doing it.
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Old 06-05-2009, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,425,753 times
Reputation: 2547
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallrick View Post
What a concept, wages falling while inflation rages up. No wonder I see real estate continuing to lose value in the years ahead. If big Government could be eliminated, it would be easy for workers to start their own businesses and stop the decline of the middle class.

No it wouldnt. Without government, we would all be working for Walmart for .25 an hour within a decade or two.
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:10 PM
 
2,652 posts, read 8,050,977 times
Reputation: 1904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
No it wouldnt. Without government, we would all be working for Walmart for .25 an hour within a decade or two.
Wrong... The most productive times in American history was when we reduced the impact of government. Letting the free market work is what works, not government guaranteed outcomes.
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