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Old 06-05-2009, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,437,173 times
Reputation: 2547

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke9686 View Post
Wrong... The most productive times in American history was when we reduced the impact of government. Letting the free market work is what works, not government guaranteed outcomes.
If the free market was left up to its own devices, we would have never made it out of the working conditions of the industrial revolution.

The reason why people become "more productive" when the government is taken out of the equation, is because capital owners are free to squeeze as much as they possibly can out of every dime they pay a worker. No sick time, 6 or 7 day work weeks, 10 hour days, no OSHA or safety standards, no workmans comp for job injuries.


As we face a market that is increasingly monopolistic or oligopolistic in nature, there is limited or no competition on the market for most workers, and since there are far more workers then decent jobs, most employers can simply wait for the lowest common denominators to fall to them, for minimal wages.

However, the most EFFICIENT workers are those who are happy. Best Buy Corporate has shown that by unchaining workers from cubicle hell, and assigning production based quotas, rather then the fossilized hourly system, with sick hours/vacation blah blah, efficiency has sky rocketed.
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Old 06-05-2009, 01:01 PM
 
804 posts, read 1,801,560 times
Reputation: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
That would be insane. Its as if you guys think the business has some sort of obligation to pay above market rates for labor.
If the position requires a Bachelor's Degree, then it is obviously not a simple "labor" position and should be paying higher than $12/hr. Otherwise the position is not 4-year material, and an Associate's Degree should suffice. There are plenty of AS level jobs which pay higher starting rates than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Also ,these plants are in the mid-west. $24/year in the mid-west can easily afford a "middle-class" lifestyle!
That may have been true at one time. The cost of living, especially housing, is rising much faster than salaries are. For someone who bought a house 50 years ago (for far less money), that may be irrelevant. For someone fresh out of college, it doesn't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Also, as the article states the $12/hour is the starting pay. As workers gain more skills and become more valuable their pay goes up. But even the starting pay is doable with sacrifices.
That's a promise made by many employers, but few will follow through since there is always "somebody cheaper" out there.

Last edited by nomore07; 06-05-2009 at 01:13 PM..
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,261,829 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyne View Post
No offense Im not sure how you get your numbers? I was being really liberal with my $1600 to $1700. How many people are you claiming on your w4's for this scenario?
I'm not sure what you don't get about the numbers, a family of 4 with an income of $24k would pay no income tax. There taxes will look like this:

$24,000.................Income
-$10,900................Standard deduction
-$14,000................Excemptions (4 x $3,500)
$0........................Taxable income.

Also, they will get EIC of around $2,500. So my initial estimate was too low, their income will be more like $2,000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyne View Post
I actually moved out to Arizona for a $12 a hour job so I can back my experience with fact can you?
Yes, with a calculator and the tax code. I'm talking about a family of 4, not an individual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyne View Post
You forgot to add car insurance, gasoline to your montly budget. On top of that what kind of car could you get for 200 a month? I drive a Yaris and my car payment is $286.
$200 includes all auto related costs. When I was in the rust-belt by insurance and gas bill was around $100/month. The amortized cost of the car I was driving was no more than $100/month. Of course some people may have to drive more. But there is an extra $250~$300/month to make up for that.

Your car has a life outside of the loan period. You can keep a car a good 10~15 years. The $200/month is amortizing costs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyne View Post
So your numbers in my opinion are way off.
They are completely accurate, again, the numbers were for a family of 4. An individual in say PA would have a take home income of $1,660. But the costs would be less, they'd have no problem making it on $24k/year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpyne View Post
As far as war not being declared on the middle class, do you think the middle class is prospering?
Yes, many just want more than a middle-class life style. My grandpa kept his truck for 30 years, how long do you plan to keep that Yaris?
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Old 06-05-2009, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,261,829 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Its not about rights here, the companies should have the decency to pay their employees a living wage.
Decency? Business are not charities. They have NO obligation to pay above market rates for labor. $12/hour in the mid-west is a living wage even for a family of 4!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Because competition has been choked off in most fields, there is far less room for entrepreneurs in the industry.
This really makes no sense. Competition has been choked off so there is less room for entrepreneurs? No, when there is healthy competition there is less room. Nobody is stopping Joe-6-pack from starting a business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Oh, by the way, we as Americans, saw little to no price benefit from the wholesale exportation of our manufacturing jobs overseas. When Levis went over seas, when Wrangler started importing....did we see an immediate price cut? No, we didnt. The scratch went to the top, likely in some CEO's incentive package. So you can come off the "would you pay 20% extra speel".
Again, the businesses as charity thing. Businesses are not going to lower prices unless they have to. You'll see no immediate price cut, the decline in price will be slow as competition drives the price down. But, in some cases there may never been a decline in price. It all depends on what people are willing to spend. This anti-business stuff is a riot... I suppose businesses are now obligated to pass profits unto consumers?! Why don't you guys just move to Cuba and stop whining already.

The price of jeans has most certainly gone down in real terms over the years.
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Old 06-05-2009, 05:11 PM
 
48,508 posts, read 88,904,751 times
Reputation: 18195
The fact are like ethnol; many green businesses will have to have government subsides and mandates because they make no businesss sense. They will cost the tax payers more rather than contribute to their income. They are like make work job ';finaced by the tax payers or wouldn't be in businesss at all. Its wil take decades of infratructure ;investment and higher cost to make any really practical.In the mean time politics will make sure billions of tax payer money is wasted on politcal green decisons that fall by the wayside.
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Old 06-05-2009, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 24,774,371 times
Reputation: 4969
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
No it wouldnt. Without government, we would all be working for Walmart for .25 an hour within a decade or two.
Without government to pick the winners and losers, more of us would be successful. Without inflation from the government mandates our work would hold its value. Government should only do its job and prevent corruption and the elite from controlling all resources.
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Old 06-06-2009, 10:04 PM
 
Location: NC
939 posts, read 792,576 times
Reputation: 1239
I'm not sure $24k is middle class however my wife and I have been out of college for around 5.5 years. My average wage during this time is $14/hr and hers is $11/hr. We "own" a 4 year old 2000 sq ft house on the east coast in a good neighborhood living 15 minutes from the state capitol building, own two cars, and have saved money for retirement and a small emergency fund. I feel we are middle class. However the difference is we have no kids and both of us work, and have around $40k in student loans.

A middle class lifestyle is certainly doable if a couple both work, however it won't be very glamorous. But you can still make it.
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,068 posts, read 77,052,788 times
Reputation: 27654
Quote:
Originally Posted by pipsters View Post

A middle class lifestyle is certainly doable if a couple both work, however it won't be very glamorous. But you can still make it.
I think what is happening is that middle class is turning back to what it originally was; what you described. Over the years, access to easy debt, middle class morphed into new cars, McMansions out in suburbia, expensive vacations, etc. - mostly based on debt, not savings.

Our standards of living and class distinctions are undergoing changes with the bust in housing, stock market, etc and are going back to the norms of years ago.
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Old 06-07-2009, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,261,829 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Our standards of living and class distinctions are undergoing changes with the bust in housing, stock market, etc and are going back to the norms of years ago.
That is doubtful, people are not going to give up all the modern things people now enjoy. Even during the depression this did not occur.
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Old 06-07-2009, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,068 posts, read 77,052,788 times
Reputation: 27654
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
That is doubtful, people are not going to give up all the modern things people now enjoy. Even during the depression this did not occur.
They won't have much of a choice..home values down, stocks down, salary raises almost non-existent. You see it happening now with retail sales numbers..retailers did not report good numbers in May.
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