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Old 06-09-2009, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,311,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExcellentFudge View Post
Maybe in some places it is. Most places pay less than that and you still have to factor in the benefits.
The $12/hour comes from the article in the OP. Feel free to show that "most places" pay less than $12/hour for hard unskilled labor. Are you suggesting that this particular business is giving out free money? They are in a particularly low cost area of the country, so if "most places" pay less, you'd think they could.
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:31 PM
 
159 posts, read 516,398 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
The $12/hour comes from the article in the OP. Feel free to show that "most places" pay less than $12/hour for hard unskilled labor. Are you suggesting that this particular business is giving out free money? They are in a particularly low cost area of the country, so if "most places" pay less, you'd think they could.
We did not factor in the illegal labor component. It is a real factor too. Yep, earning a living is not a right. Let's us agree on that and just say that the bottom line is competition is the message. What you do for a living, well that is your own pursuit. Just expect competition, even for the most mundane and trivial seeming things.
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:00 PM
 
901 posts, read 2,803,079 times
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First of all, I think sugessting that a family of 4 can live "comfortably" on $12 an hour is stretching it. As others have said, they could possible eke out a living, but it would be tough. You are also assuming the "family" is made up of two parents and two children. What if the "family" was a single parent and three kids.? Then daycare, aftercare, and other issues come into play.

Having said all of this, I agree that people's expectations have to change. Too many young people expect to graduate college and live the good life. Well, usually that not the case. Most starting salaries are not that high. So, if you're single, you have to struggle a little. Here are some of your choices (once again I'm talking about single people):
1. Live with lots of roommates
2. Live in a tiny studio apartment
3. Stay with your parents for a while after you've graduated and are working.
By the way, options 1 and 2 usually mean living in the seedy part of town too.

Younger people have to realize that you can't drive a dream car, have a great place, and a fabulous social life (lots of expensive partying) right out of college unless your wealthy parents are paying for it. In short, many people need to get a reality check.
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:11 PM
 
159 posts, read 516,398 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam82 View Post
First of all, I think sugessting that a family of 4 can live "comfortably" on $12 an hour is stretching it. As others have said, they could possible eke out a living, but it would be tough. You are also assuming the "family" is made up of two parents and two children. What if the "family" was a single parent and three kids.? Then daycare, aftercare, and other issues come into play.

Having said all of this, I agree that people's expectations have to change. Too many young people expect to graduate college and live the good life. Well, usually that not the case. Most starting salaries are not that high. So, if you're single, you have to struggle a little. Here are some of your choices (once again I'm talking about single people):
1. Live with lots of roommates
2. Live in a tiny studio apartment
3. Stay with your parents for a while after you've graduated and are working.
By the way, options 1 and 2 usually mean living in the seedy part of town too.

Younger people have to realize that you can't drive a dream car, have a great place, and a fabulous social life (lots of expensive partying) right out of college unless your wealthy parents are paying for it. In short, many people need to get a reality check.
I advocate kids staying home with their folks until they can not stand living there anymore. They can save up a nice down payment for a house and all that. They have the rest of their lives to pay rent or a bank mortgage. Screw the social peer pressure of being on your own and getting clobbered with the bills.
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:20 PM
 
901 posts, read 2,803,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExcellentFudge View Post
I advocate kids staying home with their folks until they can not stand living there anymore. They can save up a nice down payment for a house and all that. They have the rest of their lives to pay rent or a bank mortgage. Screw the social peer pressure of being on your own and getting clobbered with the bills.
Assuming the parents sill want them there
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:59 PM
 
Location: Heartland Florida
9,324 posts, read 24,833,862 times
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If it was not for fiat funny money the kids could save up enough real money working and staying with the parents in a few years to buy a home outright. If property taxes could be eliminated they would be homeowners for life. Unfortunately we live in a country controlled by the fraudulent Federal Reserve.
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:14 PM
 
Location: In My Own Little World. . .
3,238 posts, read 8,239,481 times
Reputation: 1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
You are not demonstrating a thing. You can easily find houses for $60k in the mid-west with a modest down-payment and a FHA loan the PI for the loan would be around $340. Taxes and insurance would be around $150/month leaving $110/month for maintenance. Most people don't even save for maintenance....

Anyhow, its cheaper to own in the mid-west than rent.


You think eating crappy fast food is quality of life? $500 for food is plenty. The wife is not working and can make home cooked meals. They can eat rather well on $500/month.


We are not talking about your area, rather the mid-west. A basic phone plan would be around $20/month, broad coast cable is $15/month, water/sewer/trash would be around $50/month and leaves $115/month for electric/gas. Electric bill should not be much more than $50/month and that leaves $65/month for gas (Gas bill should only be $15~$20 in non-winter months, leaving a good $600 for the winter). If you add internet it would be more like $230/month, still doable.



I'm assuming they have small used car. The costs are amortized. They should be able to get by on $60/month gas (2 tanks), $50/month insurance, $40/month repairs leaving $50/month for the cost of the actual car. For a nicer car it would be more like $250/month, still doable.

When I was in the area I paid around $130/month on average and I had an older truck. Within 6 years the truck had 2 major repairs ($800 or so each), yearly emissions/inspection, oil changes, some other minor repairs.


$600/year on clothes is rather easy. Yeah the kids outgrow the clothes fast, that is why you go to the goodwill, get hand-me-downs from friends and family, etc. $150/year each is plenty, but if they want nicer clothes they can use some of the excess they have each month.


They have some excess each month that can be used for savings and/or extras. I was only including the necessary items.

But the issue here is that the wife is not working, that is why they have to make sacrifices. The $12/hour is also starting pay and the wife can work part-time when the kids get school aged.


Nope, none of this is required. They can get a cheap life insurance policy if they are interested. There is an excess of $300/month in my budget.


They could live permanently on that budget, but it would not be the nicest thing. But the $12/hour is starting pay for unskilled labor. If they want to improve their life they need to work for it (You know instead of complaining). As the husband gains more skill his pay will go up, probably to a max of about $20/hour. That's around $38,000/year, after tax around $33,000 or $2,750. They would then have an extra $1,000/month beyond my budget.
Sorry, you still don't convince me. The budget you suggest is completely unrealistic. You have your figures, I have mine. No life insurance required??? The budget you propose is not only unrealistic, it's downright irresponsible. And we were discussing middle class, not borderline poverty. I would LOVE for someone who lives in the mid-west where you claim it's possible to live on your budget to defend what you say. Since this budget is not your budget it lacks credibility. And saying you lived on a similar budget for six years doesn't impress me. Frankly, I just don't believe you. Or maybe it should be frankly, my dear, I just don't give a d***.
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Old 06-10-2009, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,311,028 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
The budget you propose is not only unrealistic, it's downright irresponsible.
Whats unrealistic? The costs I cited are the real costs. Life insurance can easily be added for under $20 a month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
And we were discussing middle class, not borderline poverty.
The family would have everything they needed and they would have to make a sacrifice if the wife wanted to stay home. I don't consider that borderline poverty, I consider it a family that is making a sacrifice so the wife can stay home with the kids. If the wife was to work, they'd have a lot more extra money.

But just want is a middle-class life style?
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Old 06-10-2009, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,463,636 times
Reputation: 2552
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Its real life, I'm basing it on having lived in the area for 6 years. I lived on similar sort of budget, though for different reasons.
Like I said, I will research it when I get a good minute


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Perhaps you don't get the point, Walmart started as a small business and grew big. Now, of course the environment in this area differs, but I'm not suggesting people go out and try to out do Walmart. They need to look for new business opportunities.
Business opportunities are few outside of small service business and internet


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Ugh. Again, they should look for business opportunities. Trying to out do Wal-mart at the national level is unlikely to be successful, but they can most certainly try to bet them at the local level. Wal-mart does not succeed in all areas.
Walmart is rarely beat at the local level, even by the best funded and set up stores. They simply cannot compete with Walmarts global integration. Walmart has run everything from dollar stores to tire shops out of business, and the only things I ever see existing in shopping centers with them are small restaurants and video rental places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Yes, you said that. But its not true. Why don't you say what stops them from starting a manufacturing business? I know people that have done just that on a few thousand bucks in start-up money.
What can you start manufacturing for a few thousand bucks? Something out of your garage?


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Also, have a look at Etsy :: Your place to buy and sell all things handmade. You'll find thousands of people making things (i.e., manufacturing) and making decent money. Why does it work? Because they are vertical integrated, they selling the products they make at retail. Most would never make enough wholesaling.
1. Home made crafts are loosely defined as "manufacturing" at best.

2. By and large, artisans do work largely as a hobby. Most that attempt to make a livelihood at it are dirt broke, hence the phrase "starving artist".

3. Because there is a website for the trade in handmade objects, does not mean they are all making good livings at it. Chances are few are making a "living" at it, and most are just trying to supplement a primary household income.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
While you pretend that nobody can start a business in such and such, thousands are out there actually doing it.
Largely small service businesses. Many of which go bankrupt in the first few years, and many which force other established small service businesses out of business. There is only so much demand for ANYTHING. Creating a product doesnt just magically create demand. If 10 people want to go out to eat, and there is one restaurant, they will get 10 people, if there are 2, if the second gets any business at all, its taking away from the first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
In what way does Walmart block entry? Walmart in no way blocks someone from starting a similar store and competing with them. The issue here is that Walmart is very good at what they do, in fact they are brilliant at supply chain management. If by "block entry" you mean there is already a successful business, than almost every thing is blocked!
No, simply being a "successful business" doesnt block entry. Completely dominating all facets of business to the point Walmart has, or being prohibitively expensive to enter, such as auto production or utilities blocks entry. Unfortunatley, many lines of business are to this point. You can set up a barber shop and compete (even though Walmart is running those out as well as vision centers), maybe a restaurant, or cleaning business, but many other things, you are just setting yourself up for continuous losses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Anyhow, you don't attack Walmart by trying to "out walmart" them. You attack them where they are weak, which is in a variety of niche/local markets. Walmart has trouble adjusting to local markets well.
Walmart is general enough to effectively choke off most retail competitors. Grocery stores cannot operate within 2 miles of a super center, hair salons go out of business, dollar stores, vision centers, auto centers, music and toy stores, linen stores, other general merchandise stores, shoe stores, lower end clothing retailers, electronic stores.....the list is endless.

What is left in the wake of Walmart are very high end retailers, very high end or ethnic groceries, restaurants, and other service locations that do not directly compete with Walmart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Are you serious? Dude, one purchase means nothing. You need to look at average prices.
I could not locate average prices for Levis in 1999, so I had to use a personal example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
That's great. You do realize the point of business is to make you know...profit? $5.4 million profit for a company that size is horrible. Their total revenue is $4.3 billion though, so their profit is only around 10%. That is not outrageous at all.
The point of business doesnt neccessarily have to be ALL about profit though. Many business cultures around the world support much broader goals including employee happiness. Profit only business seems to be a symptom largely unique to the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
But what you are trying to suggest from this is simply not supported. Business are not charities, they are going to get the most for their products as possible. If Levi's can get their products produced for less and still sell them for the same amount that is great for business. Why would they lower the price if they did not have to? Makes no sense at all.
What Im saying is EXACTLY supported. By shifting production over seas, Levis did not "lower the cost" for the American consumer, as many who are pro-globalism and outsourcing would argue, they simply padded their profits, which is exactly the result in most cases of offshoring.
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Old 06-10-2009, 09:44 AM
 
Location: In My Own Little World. . .
3,238 posts, read 8,239,481 times
Reputation: 1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Whats unrealistic? The costs I cited are the real costs. Life insurance can easily be added for under $20 a month.


The family would have everything they needed and they would have to make a sacrifice if the wife wanted to stay home. I don't consider that borderline poverty, I consider it a family that is making a sacrifice so the wife can stay home with the kids. If the wife was to work, they'd have a lot more extra money.

But just want is a middle-class life style?
No, the costs you cited are not real, which is why I invited anyone living in the mid-west you're saying that budget would work in to defend your budget.

The family would not have everything they needed, you conveniently left out my comments on money for gifts, birthday parties, kids sports fees and equipment, church contributions, school supplies, field trips, school fundraisers, retirement and college funding. To say nothing about the nice little things that most middle class families take for granted like eating out occasionally, vacations and Christmas.

Wife working would not give them "a lot of extra money." Her costs associated with working would eat into that "lot of extra money." I supposed in the summertime mom would just go off and leave the kids at home alone all day while she worked part time? And when they were sick, she would tell them to suck it up and take care of themselves? And I'm sure any company would be thrilled to have her show up for work in the jeans, sneakers and t-shirts that your clothing budget would allow?

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't think most people who aspire to middle class would consider shopping in thrift stores and using hand me downs for their kids clothing as a way of life they desire.

And $20 for life insurance is great if your young and healthy. Not everyone is.

I would be very impressed if you could post links to the various budget amounts you're proposing. Where, and in what shape, is this $60,000 house you're talking about? Does the area with this house have property taxes, car insurance, and utilities at the amounts you're quoting? Are the distances between stores, home, jobs, etc. so close that two tanks of gas would get this family of four around for a month? Links please.
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