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Old 06-10-2009, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,446,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post

Wife working would not give them "a lot of extra money." Her costs associated with working would eat into that "lot of extra money." I supposed in the summertime mom would just go off and leave the kids at home alone all day while she worked part time?
This is a terrific point. Many couples with kids, in which one of the spouses has limited earning potential, have found that it is more cost effective for the wife not to work at all. My Mom was a stay at home mother for most of my childhood because of this fact. Childcare would cost far more then she could possibly make, thats not even including work clothes, alternate transportation, etc.

Hell, when I was married, my wife spent more money then she made for clothes, a vehicle large enough to carry her ample ass, and gas to fill it.
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Old 06-10-2009, 02:20 PM
 
Location: In My Own Little World. . .
3,238 posts, read 8,230,065 times
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Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Hell, when I was married, my wife spent more money then she made for clothes, a vehicle large enough to carry her ample ass, and gas to fill it.
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Old 06-10-2009, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post

Lol, I could have said jumbo, massive, or humongous!
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Old 06-10-2009, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,279,649 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
No, the costs you cited are not real, which is why I invited anyone living in the mid-west you're saying that budget would work in to defend your budget.
They are not real? Which ones? And if you already know they are "not real" why do you need someone from the mid-west to confirm matters? You'll just write them off with a "I don't care".

All the costs can be looked up, this is not rocket science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
The family would not have everything they needed, you conveniently left out my comments on money for gifts, birthday parties, kids sports fees and equipment, church contributions, school supplies, field trips, school fundraisers, retirement and college funding.
I did not conveniently leave that out, rather I don't think lacking money for all of that makes you "poor". If so, I grew up rather poor. The picture you are trying to paint is of a rather yuppie family. The job in question is an unskilled hard labor position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
Wife working would not give them "a lot of extra money." Her costs associated with working would eat into that "lot of extra money."
She could make a good extra $500/month or so. That would be a lot of extra money for the family in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
And I'm sure any company would be thrilled to have her show up for work in the jeans, sneakers and t-shirts that your clothing budget would allow?
Most unskilled jobs would not care. Also, who says she has to wear jeans, sneakers and t-shirts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
but I don't think most people who aspire to middle class would consider shopping in thrift stores and using hand me downs for their kids clothing as a way of life they desire.
Again, you're talking about yuppies. Although, trading clothes, shopping garage sales, etc is less popular today then it use to be, it is still done by many people that are solidly middle-class. Ya see, some people realize how silly it is to pay full price for some kid clothes that will be used for a year or so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by colleeng47 View Post
Where, and in what shape, is this $60,000 house you're talking about? Does the area with this house have property taxes, car insurance, and utilities at the amounts you're quoting?
The $60,000 house will be a decent house in a decent neighborhood. If instead of denying things you actually did a quick search in the rust-belt for homes you'd find that there are tons in this piece range. But, here:

520 listings for 3-bedroom under $60k in Pittsburgh:

Page 5 | Pittsburgh, PA, Real Estate Listings and Pittsburgh Homes for Sale - REALTOR.com®

535 listings for 3-bedrooms under $60k in Columbus:

Columbus, OH, Real Estate Listings and Columbus Homes for Sale - REALTOR.com®

800 listings for 3-bedrooms under $60k in Indianapolis:

Indianapolis, IN, Real Estate Listings and Indianapolis Homes for Sale - REALTOR.com®

You can find a decent house in the $60k in most areas in the mid-west, but there are of course more expensive areas. $60k buys you a decent house in a decent area. Once you start going below $40k the houses tend to be in bad areas or very run down.

All the states in question have property tax, I included property tax in my budget. On average its around 2% of the value, so around $100/month. There is no easy way for me to give you insurance quotes, but I don't know why you consider $600/year unbelievable for an older car in the mid-west. More than likely they can do better than that, I was using my costs from living in a major cities (where insurance is typically higher).

The utilities costs are similar regardless of where you are. Cable companies by law have to offer broad cast cable, its $15/month. A basic phone plan is $20/month, a basic internet plan is $20/month. Electricity is around $.10/Killowatt hour in the mid-west. 400~500 killowatt hours a month puts them at $40~$50. Currently on average we use 500 KH and all of our applicances are electricty! $600/month is plenty for heating in the winter too, I'm not talking about keeping your house at 75~80 degrees here. When I lived in the area I'd do around 68 when I was home and awake and 60 when not home or asleep.

Anyhow, you know the costs are unrealistic, yet you have not even bothered to look anything up! Brilliant.
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Old 06-10-2009, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,279,649 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Business opportunities are few outside of small service business and internet
Perhaps the problem is your lack of imagination? People are starting businesses outside of "small service businesses" all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Walmart is rarely beat at the local level, even by the best funded and set up stores. They simply cannot compete with Walmarts global integration.
Its beat all the time, but you'll have to leave the suburbs to see it. Walmart does not do very well in big cities. For example, there is no Wal-mart anywhere near the core of Los Angeles. Walmart tends to do poorly in areas that are multicultural and of course they don't do well in areas that are more wealthy.

The point is not to compete where walmart is strong, but where they are weak. They are weak on variety and local flavor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Walmart has run everything from dollar stores to tire shops out of business,
So what? Some areas only have room for one discount store.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
What can you start manufacturing for a few thousand bucks? Something out of your garage?
Use your imagination! You could screen print, make furninature, build computers, make candles, make jewelry, make soaps, make clothing, etc.
Of course you need to start on something you can compete with and have a strategic vision on how you'll grow out of simple manufacturing in the garage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
1. Home made crafts are loosely defined as "manufacturing" at best.
2. By and large, artisans do work largely as a hobby. Most that attempt to make a livelihood at it are dirt broke, hence the phrase "starving artist".
Oh please. So, if something is hand made its a "craft" and only loosely manufacturing? Ridiculous. The things that do best on etsy are not "arts and crafts" they are standard products that happen to made by an individuals. A girl in the mid-west can hand sue a dress sell it for $60 bucks and make much more than she would per hour at most jobs! Etsy represents a growing community that is interested in sustainable living.

Firstly, feel free to show that "most that attempt....". Secondly, we are not talking about artists here, rather people making useful products that happen to be using less industrialized processes. From a business point of view it works because they are vertical integrated, that is the great thing with places like etsy. Although, they cannot necessarily compete with Wal-mart price they can still sell things and fairly competitive prices because they are vertical integrated, they are making money from the manufacturing and retail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
3. Because there is a website for the trade in handmade objects, does not mean they are all making good livings at it.
I never stated that they are "all making good livings", I said thousands. You can see how well they are doing by looking at their sells numbers, of course it does not tell you about profit. But you can at least get an idea about revenue. I know a number of peope that sell on the site (and else where) that make a decent living doing it. One of them happens to be my wife.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
There is only so much demand for ANYTHING. Creating a product doesnt just magically create demand.
I'm always amused when people state things as facts when they are in fact difficult issues. Say's law suggests that in a sense creating a product does create demand! The only way you can have a glut of products is if they are unevenly produced. In other words, production creates its own demand. Keynesian disagree with the idea.

Say's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Completely dominating all facets of business to the point Walmart has, or being prohibitively expensive to enter, such as auto production or utilities blocks entry.
There is nothing that stops someone from competing with Walmart. If you had the money you could create retail store, nobody would stop you. The issue with Walmart is that they are rather good at what they do! But being successful is not blocking entry.

Utilities, telecommunications, etc is a different story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Walmart is general enough to effectively choke off most retail competitors.
This depends on the size of the area, many small towns only have enough business for a single retailer in X with their current economic activity. There is a walmart around 4 miles form me, it has not choked off most retail competitors. Not even close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Grocery stores cannot operate within 2 miles of a super center,
Really why is that? Walmart is not always cheaper than grocery stores. I can think of examples where this "cannot" occurs....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
What is left in the wake of Walmart are very high end retailers, very high end or ethnic groceries, restaurants, and other service locations that do not directly compete with Walmart.
Why don't you demonstrate this? Show that it happens in general, and not just some special case in some small southern town. I've never seen anything even close to this in any modest sized area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
I could not locate average prices for Levis in 1999, so I had to use a personal example.
Which does not demonstrate anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Many business cultures around the world support much broader goals including employee happiness. Profit only business seems to be a symptom largely unique to the USA.
Hogwash. Businesses care about employee happiness in so much as it improves their bottom line. This is not just a "USA thing", in fact Asians tend to be even more greed driven.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
By shifting production over seas, Levis did not "lower the cost" for the American consumer, as many who are pro-globalism and outsourcing would argue, they simply padded their profits, which is exactly the result in most cases of offshoring.
You have not demonstrated that Jeans in general have stayed the same in price (or increased) in real terms. Looking at a single company is immaterial as pricing is rather complex. The product can demand due to improved marketing and branding.

Also, the point of globalization is not necessarily to lower prices. No economist would argue that.

Anyhow, if it padded their profits, it sounds like it was a rather good business move! Good for them.
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Old 06-11-2009, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,446,998 times
Reputation: 2552
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post

I cant speak for Pittsburgh, but I can speak for Indianapolis, and most of these houses are NOT in an area youd want to bring your kids up in. They are mostly right outside of downtown, deep inside the belt, in areas well known to be cess pools. Either that or they are completley run down and dilapitated and would require 1,000s or dollars of rehab and 100's of hours of labor.
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Old 06-11-2009, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,446,998 times
Reputation: 2552
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Perhaps the problem is your lack of imagination? People are starting businesses outside of "small service businesses" all the time.
And theyre failing as well. Why dont you list a few examples of recent businesses that are not internet or small scale service, that have been in business longer then 3 years.



Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Its beat all the time, but you'll have to leave the suburbs to see it. Walmart does not do very well in big cities. For example, there is no Wal-mart anywhere near the core of Los Angeles. Walmart tends to do poorly in areas that are multicultural and of course they don't do well in areas that are more wealthy.
I didnt know I lived in a suburb, nor did I know that Norfolk, VA is unicultural. Then again, I wouldnt expect you to know what you are talking about, you never do. Anyhow, I wonder how many walmarts are in the following "unicultural" cities.

St. Louis- Atleast 2 Walmarts inside of St. Louis
Kansas City- Atleast 5
Miami- 1 in Miami, and 11 within 15 miles of the city center, including 1 in Hialeah, which is over 70% hispanic
Chicago- 1 in Chicago, and at least 8 within 15 miles,
Houston- Over 15 of them in Houston, which is over 25% of three different races

It goes on and on.

By the way, why dont you address the real reason there are no Walmarts in Los Angeles, the fact that every time they try to put one up, the population protests it in mass, and even enacted specific ordinance targeting Walmart.

frontline: is wal-mart good for america?: transforming: one, two, three, four ... we don't want your superstore | PBS



Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
The point is not to compete where walmart is strong, but where they are weak. They are weak on variety and local flavor.
Variety and local flavor= small service business catering to a sliver of a niche


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
So what? Some areas only have room for one discount store.
They had room for MANY different types of small businesses before Walmart ran them out


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Use your imagination! You could screen print, make furninature, build computers, make candles, make jewelry, make soaps, make clothing, etc.
Of course you need to start on something you can compete with and have a strategic vision on how you'll grow out of simple manufacturing in the garage.
Most of which would provide a worse living then actually working for Walmart.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Oh please. So, if something is hand made its a "craft" and only loosely manufacturing? Ridiculous. The things that do best on etsy are not "arts and crafts" they are standard products that happen to made by an individuals. A girl in the mid-west can hand sue a dress sell it for $60 bucks and make much more than she would per hour at most jobs! Etsy represents a growing community that is interested in sustainable living.
Have you ever hand made a dress? Of course you havent, because once again, you have no clue what you are talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I never stated that they are "all making good livings", I said thousands. You can see how well they are doing by looking at their sells numbers, of course it does not tell you about profit. But you can at least get an idea about revenue. I know a number of peope that sell on the site (and else where) that make a decent living doing it. One of them happens to be my wife.
Hypocritically using your wife as an example, yet chastising my jeans example. You are worthless at debate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I'm always amused when people state things as facts when they are in fact difficult issues. Say's law suggests that in a sense creating a product does create demand! The only way you can have a glut of products is if they are unevenly produced. In other words, production creates its own demand. Keynesian disagree with the idea.

Say's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1. I suggest you actually read Says law. Nowhere does it say that demand will meet supply, it says demand and supply will equal eachother and that a "glut will occur when too many means are applied to a certain part of the economy". In general, this can actually be interpreted to mean that SUPPLY will match DEMAND. In other words, if a person is producing something that someone doesnt want, they will either A. Stop producing additional goods the economy doesnt want, or B. Produce a different good that the economy does want. Simply producing a good NEVER ensures its trade for any other good.


Simple logic consistently escapes you but Ill try again. If there are only 10 businesses that need accounting services, because I make an accounting services firm, another magical business is not going to pop up to demand my service. I will either STEAL business from another firm, or I will go out of business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
There is nothing that stops someone from competing with Walmart. If you had the money you could create retail store, nobody would stop you. The issue with Walmart is that they are rather good at what they do! But being successful is not blocking entry.
Domination of industry is certainly a block. It might be time to go back to remedial economics or marketing here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Utilities, telecommunications, etc is a different story.
Nope, same exact story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
This depends on the size of the area, many small towns only have enough business for a single retailer in X with their current economic activity. There is a walmart around 4 miles form me, it has not choked off most retail competitors. Not even close.
Contradicting yourself once again. Which is it, there is only set demand, or demand automatically expands when goods are created? According to your interpretation of Says Law, it would not matter how many stores were cramped in to a small area, all of the goods would automatically be demanded just because they were produced.

Now it seems, to fit your argument, demand is limited, and that is why Walmart runs other retailers out of business.

Go home.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Really why is that? Walmart is not always cheaper than grocery stores. I can think of examples where this "cannot" occurs....
Walmart is not "always" cheaper, but is cheaper on a whole enough that a grocery store could not possibly stay in business on the limited planes it competes on, which ironically, would be mostly sale priced loss leaders.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Why don't you demonstrate this? Show that it happens in general, and not just some special case in some small southern town. I've never seen anything even close to this in any modest sized area.

Small southern town? Walmart is almost exclusively responsible for the ills of Toys R Us, KB Toys, Kmart and the shuttering of many independent music chains and small grocery chains.

The number of law suits, videos and anti walmart propaganda citing specific examples of the predatory nature of Walmart are nearly endless. You can google it and come up with 200+ examples immediatley. Walmart has been sued on NATIONAL levels in Mexico and Germany.

Hell, youve probably had the good fortune of witnessing several mass protests of Walmart right in your little hovel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Which does not demonstrate anything.
Sure it does. It just doesnt demonstrate anything acceptable to you, whom I could care less about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Hogwash. Businesses care about employee happiness in so much as it improves their bottom line. This is not just a "USA thing", in fact Asians tend to be even more greed driven.
Really? So, if I go dig up the GINI indexes and the wage disparity between corporate officers and low end employees, they should be significantly worse in Asia then the US? Or would you like to retract before getting proven clueless yet again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
You have not demonstrated that Jeans in general have stayed the same in price (or increased) in real terms. Looking at a single company is immaterial as pricing is rather complex. The product can demand due to improved marketing and branding.
You have got to be kidding me, comparing a single company at two different points, before and after outsourcing, is the BEST way to determine the results of outsourcing. Taking jeans on a whole is a worthless comparison, there are far too many external factors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Also, the point of globalization is not necessarily to lower prices. No economist would argue that.
Noone has argued its the point, however, many have argued that lower prices are a benefit to it, when they arent. Increased profits are the only benefit that has been seen by outsourcing. Inflation has steadily risen, and the CPI has not been noticeably affected by outsourcing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Anyhow, if it padded their profits, it sounds like it was a rather good business move! Good for them.
I hope you never find yourself out of work and unemployable. I would roll down my window, and spit on your "work for food" sign.
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Old 06-11-2009, 10:42 AM
 
Location: In My Own Little World. . .
3,238 posts, read 8,230,065 times
Reputation: 1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Anyhow, you know the costs are unrealistic, yet you have not even bothered to look anything up! Brilliant.
Noooooo, since you were the one quoting the prices it falls to you to prove them when someone questions them. You still have an unrealistic and ridiculous outlook on "middle class." I don't think having your child go to birthday parties or join a soccer team puts you into the "yuppie" category. You're funny.
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,470 posts, read 18,279,649 times
Reputation: 4343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
I cant speak for Pittsburgh, but I can speak for Indianapolis, and most of these houses are NOT in an area youd want to bring your kids up in.
I'm not claiming that every single house listed for $60k is decent, rather that you can pretty easily find a decent house for $60k even within the major cities. The stuff outside of the city is cheaper and factories are almost always outside of the cities. I've never lived in Indianapolis, but in Columbus and Pittsburgh case I'd say around 25% of the listings in the $60k are of houses are decent. But these are larger cities and they have some degree of crime no matter where you live in them.
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,068 posts, read 77,126,356 times
Reputation: 27655
Ha..you won't find a "decent" home in Austin Texas "within the major city" for under $400K.
A decent upper lower class home in a decent neighborhood is about $150K. Anything under that is in an iffy neighborhood.
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