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Old 06-23-2009, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Central Ohio
10,817 posts, read 14,886,507 times
Reputation: 16515

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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Its really odd how hostile this forum is to free-markets and the rights of businesses.

Now, if a business is getting plenty of applications from folks when offering $12/hour why in the world would they pay more?!?! That would be insane. Its as if you guys think the business has some sort of obligation to pay above market rates for labor. Should it also pay more 20% extra for its steal and equipment just to be nice? Are you going to pay 20% more for their products just to be nice? Such nonsense.

Also ,these plants are in the mid-west. $24/year in the mid-west can easily afford a "middle-class" lifestyle! Lets break it down, say its a family of 4. They can buy a modest family home for $60k (these are a dime and dozen in the rust-belt, even in the bigger cities). They will pay virtually no taxes, just social security so after tax income is $22,300k, or $1,850/month.

Housing.............$600
Food.................$500 (Obviously assuming home cooked meals)
Utils..................$200 (average, less in summer, more in winter)
Health care........$200 (Assuming, they get benefits, but have some out-of-pocket)
Car...................$200 (Averaging)
Clothes..............$50 (averaging)
Total.................$1,750

That leaves $100/month for savings. If the wife works part time, then anything she makes will be additional savings. Anyhow, this would of course involve a lot of sacrifices, at least in the shortest term. But in what sense is it not "middle-class"?

Also, as the article states the $12/hour is the starting pay. As workers gain more skills and become more valuable their pay goes up. But even the starting pay is doable with sacrifices.
I don't disagree but for the midwest your figures are low.

Housing.............$800
Food.................$500 (Obviously assuming home cooked meals)
Utils..................$400 (average, less in summer, more in winter)
Health care........$400 (Assuming, they get benefits, but have some out-of-pocket)
Car...................$400 (Averaging)
Clothes..............$150 (averaging)
Total.................$2,550

That house comes with property taxes and homeowners insurance.

You said family of four. $500 for food is doable but only if all meals are eaten at home.

Utilities are high, you must have heat in winter and summers do get up to 100 degrees.

Health insurance. I am probably light at $400 a month. I would estimate just the employee portion of the premium will be $400 a month which is a good deal. You really should make medical $600 assuming $400 per month will be deducted form the workers payroll.

Car, you got insurance that is going to run at least $75 a month for a beater without collision. Add gas, oil and some maint. and then you have a car barely safe enough to get you to and from work.

Clothes? Dude, you ever dress kids?

$1,750 for a single would be very doable. Or a wife who works taking home $1,200 would work too.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Rockland County New York
2,984 posts, read 5,845,557 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicet4 View Post
I don't disagree but for the midwest your figures are low.

Housing.............$800
Food.................$500 (Obviously assuming home cooked meals)
Utils..................$400 (average, less in summer, more in winter)
Health care........$400 (Assuming, they get benefits, but have some out-of-pocket)
Car...................$400 (Averaging)
Clothes..............$150 (averaging)
Total.................$2,550

That house comes with property taxes and homeowners insurance.

You said family of four. $500 for food is doable but only if all meals are eaten at home.

Utilities are high, you must have heat in winter and summers do get up to 100 degrees.

Health insurance. I am probably light at $400 a month. I would estimate just the employee portion of the premium will be $400 a month which is a good deal. You really should make medical $600 assuming $400 per month will be deducted form the workers payroll.

Car, you got insurance that is going to run at least $75 a month for a beater without collision. Add gas, oil and some maint. and then you have a car barely safe enough to get you to and from work.

Clothes? Dude, you ever dress kids?

$1,750 for a single would be very doable. Or a wife who works taking home $1,200 would work too.
Hey user_id what would your acceptable wages and home prices be in NY? I am dying for you to tell me. People are being hurt by big business. Why should they trust them? You forget that people don't care about they rights of business. They just want to get on with their lives. When they loose their jobs due to outsourcing don't expect them to smile and forget about it.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,021,089 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicet4 View Post
I don't disagree but for the midwest your figures are low.

Housing.............$800
Food.................$500 (Obviously assuming home cooked meals)
Utils..................$400 (average, less in summer, more in winter)
Health care........$400 (Assuming, they get benefits, but have some out-of-pocket)
Car...................$400 (Averaging)
Clothes..............$150 (averaging)
Total.................$2,550
$600 for housing is enough to afford a home for $60k. I was including property tax, insurance and a bit for maintenance. No way would you need $400/month for utils unless we are talking about full cable packages etc. $200~$250/month on average is enough for utilities. That is sewer/trash $50, electric $50, phone/basic cable $50, gas $50 (on average, only like $15~$20 during the non-winter mouths). $250/month would be plenty, but you can probably make it work with $200/month.

The health care is hard to say, but most people with a family of 4 will end up with around $200~$300/month out of pocket costs. $400/month is on the high end.

$400/month for a car is too much. Even if you buy a new car (in the $15k range) and keep it for 10 years the amortized costs would be around $150/month. You'd pay around $75 on average for good auto insurance in the area (a bit higher when the car was newer, less when it gets older). Right now I'm paying $90/month for good insurance in one of the most expensive areas of the country! Anyhow, $300/month on average for a new car, $200~$250 if they get cheaper used cars.

I think $150/month on clothes is too much.

Anyhow, my budget was suppose to be bottom of the barrel while still having normal things.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,021,089 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stac2007 View Post
Hey user_id what would your acceptable wages and home prices be in NY? I am dying for you to tell me.
I don't believe upstate New York is not that much different than the rust-belt in terms of costs. The NYC area can be rather expensive. Anyhow, I've never lived in New York so I'm not sure.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Rockland County New York
2,984 posts, read 5,845,557 times
Reputation: 1298
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I don't believe upstate New York is not that much different than the rust-belt in terms of costs. The NYC area can be rather expensive. Anyhow, I've never lived in New York so I'm not sure.
Upstate New York is dead. There is not work up there. Where I live a simple high ranch will cost you $500k and if you want to work you must travel into NYC which right now is loosing thousands of jobs.
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Old 06-24-2009, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,021,089 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stac2007 View Post
Where I live a simple high ranch will cost you $500k and if you want to work you must travel into NYC which right now is loosing thousands of jobs.
Sounds like real estate is extremely overpriced where you are, but what is your point? I guess someone on a lower wage should not live in your community?
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:36 AM
 
Location: New Haven Michigan
426 posts, read 1,280,212 times
Reputation: 348
Default Costs

Did you include just the taxes and fees on the utilities? It is like a quarter of the bill where I live. I would love to pay a flat $20 on my basic phone bill. I am paying close to $40 and about $15 is fees and taxes.
Those 60K houses usually need a roof at some point, bad pipes,wiring appliances that are ancient. Carpet that is usually the original that came with the place.
I just bought a lawnmower that was $200.
My car insurance for an old beat up truck is $230 every six months, then there is the plates, registration, and license.
My gas bill this winter was over $200 for about four months, and that was with the thermostat at 66.
Great news today, our water bill is going up over 100 a year. Seems they have to replace the pipes in the city.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:35 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,021,089 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathys View Post
Did you include just the taxes and fees on the utilities? It is like a quarter of the bill where I live. I would love to pay a flat $20 on my basic phone bill. I am paying close to $40 and about $15 is fees and taxes.
I'm calculating the full cost of the utilities. I just looked it up, basic phone service by AT&T starts at $19 in your area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathys View Post
Those 60K houses usually need a roof at some point, bad pipes,wiring appliances that are ancient. Carpet that is usually the original that came with the place.
I included maintenance costs. Considering most of the homes were built before Carpet was popularized, no, they don't have the original that came with the place. Most have wood floors which can be refinished with little money and a lot of elbow grease.

Anyhow, I'm not claiming that the $60k houses are great. But you can find decent ones.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kathys View Post
My car insurance for an old beat up truck is $230 every six months, then there is the plates, registration, and license.
My budget figured $300/per six months for insurance. The other things are usually not more than $100/year.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:10 AM
 
Location: New Haven Michigan
426 posts, read 1,280,212 times
Reputation: 348
I just had a water pump put on that was $260, a month later brakes and had to have radiator flushed out that cost me $465.
I don't have my phone bill handy, but I would like to know how I can get the phone for $20. Like I said the fees and taxes come out to about that without service.If you have a basic service for the $20 you are claiming, I know that would not be including toll calls or zone calls, for sure not long distance. If you by chance need to call one of those numbers, which could be across the street the way they have it set up, watch that so called basic $20 bill be doubled.
Oh and having wood floors makes homes colder in winter.I grew up with them.
How long are your washers, refrigorator, furnace, water heaters going to last? What about furniture. I need a new bed, how much is that? I guess I could sleep on the floor, but that gets uncomfortable and I guess it could be done, but when you have to get up and go to work, it sure makes for a long unpleasant day, not getting good rest is a killer
Right now they are having record heat in the rust belt area-midwest. It does'nt get that hot? I live right off the water, right near Lake St Clair, by Detroit. I would love for you to see the $10,000 homes. They have holes in the ceilings, copper stripped out,broken windows, missing bricks, the wiring is from the 30s and 40s the basements flooded, some with sewerage in them.No furnaces,or ancient ones alo no insulation, roofs needing to be redone.
My boyfriend worked for a guy that fixed them and rented and sold them.The neighborhoods looked like a warzone.
The utility companies here want a raise every other month. The water like I said is going up. Oh and Detroit who most of the suburbs get water from, the plant has been run down for years. I don't know how it keeps going. Someone is going to have to pay for it, and that is an increase passed down to consumers.
I don't even want to go into healthcare.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:10 AM
 
Location: Central CT, sometimes FL and NH.
4,513 posts, read 6,755,456 times
Reputation: 5908
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Here's a snippet from that article:
"But the company's president, John Winch, noted that in the long run, wages in the U.S. will probably come down as wages in the developing world come up - all part of the globalization process."

This is the free market taking effect..globalization means US salaries MUST come down if we want to compete.
This is very true. In the 90s I worked for a major corporation in purchasing. I remember sitting with my boss and reviewing long-term agreements being set up with foreign countries. The foreign countries' governments had production-facility clauses which required our company to build, train and employ workers in their country if we wanted to do business there. In most cases the business to be gained in these countries could not be supported by sales in that country alone. Therefore, we had to transfer many of our domestically-produced products to these lower-wage countries in order to make the deals work.

Our government was not requiring us to retain production to do business here. I was quite displeased with this one-sided arrangement as many of the areas being eliminated in my company employed parents of my friends I had grown up with. My boss said, "This is the way of the future, our standard of living will need to come down so that the rest of the world's can go up."

These events led me to pursue a different career path.
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