New Economic Update

[user_id]

Originally Posted by floridasandy

americans have been sending their wealth to other countries, not sucking the wealth of other countries!

You are going to have trouble explaining why these other countries have so much poverty and the US has the highest standard of living. You are also going to have trouble explaining why the US is so indebted to these other countries. Yeah, the US has been transferring its wealth and borrowing it back again?

The mere fact that the US dollar is the global reverse currency is a large subsidy to the US.

[chuck22b]

Originally Posted by user_id

You are going to have trouble explaining why these other countries have so much poverty and the US has the highest standard of living. You are also going to have trouble explaining why the US is so indebted to these other countries. Yeah, the US has been transferring its wealth and borrowing it back again?

The mere fact that the US dollar is the global reverse currency is a large subsidy to the US.

I think it really depends on who is getting this "wealth". In the most part that "high" standard of living in the States has been a farce conjugated by accumulating debt. The real winners on either side of the pond are the capital owners, and as a result, we've seen a higher concentration of wealth at the top on both sides of the pond.

So, it's not a matter of the US citizens sucking wealth or foreign citizens taking the wealth, it's more the capital owners sucking the wealth from the workers of the world en aggregate.

In a globalized world, it's the owners of the debt that have gained wealth.. China's government and high power capital owners have gained real wealth by lending it to Americans, but generally speaking, the citizenry of China are still impoverished vis a vis their production ability. Multinationals have increased their wealth, foreign governments have increased their wealth, there are more billionaires now than ever. Consequentially, the median citizen in either country... not as well off proportionally.

-chuck22b

[user_id]

Originally Posted by chuck22b

I think it really depends on who is getting this "wealth". In the most part that "high" standard of living in the States has been a farce conjugated by accumulating debt.

Yes, of course a farce! Its the debt that distinguishes the US from Africa!

Americans are just spoiled brats, the poor in this country live better than the majority of the people on the planet.

Originally Posted by chuck22b

So, it's not a matter of the US citizens sucking wealth or foreign citizens taking the wealth, it's more the capital owners sucking the wealth from the workers of the world en aggregate.

Oh please. Americans have loaded up on cheap goods made by foreign labor. American citizens if anything are more to blame, they are the ones that control the markets.

Originally Posted by chuck22b

China's government and high power capital owners have gained real wealth by lending it to Americans, but generally speaking,

No, they've gained pieces of paper. They've been financing American consumption of their products as a way to stimulate their economy. There are significant costs in doing this though. They may have been better off just paying the products and putting them in a hole.

But China is not Americas wiping boy. That stopped when the National party was ousted from the mainland by Mao.

Originally Posted by chuck22b

Consequentially, the median citizen in either country... not as well off proportionally.

More people have been lifted out of poverty in China from reforms of the great Deng Xiaoping then ever before. While there are now numerous people with a lot of wealth, there are 100's of millions that have been taken out of poverty.

[chuck22b]

Originally Posted by user_id

More people have been lifted out of poverty in China from reforms of the great Deng Xiaoping then ever before. While there are now numerous people with a lot of wealth, there are 100's of millions that have been taken out of poverty.

Of course if you work 14 hour days 7 days a week you shouldn't be in poverty - unless your a slave. Proportionally speaking, vis a vis production, most of the population and migrant workers in China aren't getting their worth in labor capital. By far most of the capital moves to the top and to the government entities. Similar I guess to when the States underwent an industrial revolution, and workers were basically slave labor. Communism has definitely taken a back seat to capitalism... I guess it's more profitable for those at the top to sell personal suffering for "national" prosperity (sure, national prosperity... for the few... bad health and a destroyed environment for the rest).

I sure hope if someone puts that much labor, work, energy, calories, etc. at the expense of their health, environment, family etc. into something that they are able to lift themselves out of poverty - it'd be pretty sad if they were not.

-chuck22b

[floridasandy]

Originally Posted by user_id

You are going to have trouble explaining why these other countries have so much poverty and the US has the highest standard of living. You are also going to have trouble explaining why the US is so indebted to these other countries. Yeah, the US has been transferring its wealth and borrowing it back again?

The mere fact that the US dollar is the global reverse currency is a large subsidy to the US.

i am getting tired of your little whining diatribes against america. america was in the forefront of production and rose to the highest standard of living in the world. our system allowed innovation and great advances in defense, electronics, medical supplies, medicines, etc.
the rest of the world has benefited greatly from these advances, especially the drugs we produced.
we then changed from being a manufacturing economy to a service economy, mostly due to some bad trade agreements which benefit corporate powers, so therefore we then transferred money to other countries which had a manufacturing base, like china.

[floridasandy]

Originally Posted by user_id

The bill had hundreds of sponsors, many of which were Republican.

Bush signed it into law and it was developed with the treasury department headed by Bush's pals. You do know that a president can veto legislation right?

wrong again:Sponsor:
Rep. Patrick Kennedy Cosponsors
Rep. Philip English [R-PA3]
Rep. Grace Napolitano [D-CA38]
Rep. Gwen Moore [D-WI4]
Rep. Edward Markey [D-MA7]
Rep. Shelley Capito [R-WV2]
Del. Madeleine Bordallo [D-GU]
Rep. John Mica [R-FL7]
Rep. Bob Filner [D-CA51]
Rep. James Walsh [R-NY25]
Rep. Mark Kirk [R-IL10]
Del. Eni Faleomavaega [D-AS]
Rep. John Salazar [D-CO3]
Rep. Timothy Bishop [D-NY1]
Rep. Zachary Space [D-OH18]
Del. Donna Christensen [D-VI]
Rep. Peter King [R-NY3]
Rep. Bradley Miller [D-NC13]
Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee [D-TX18]
Rep. Silvestre Reyes [D-TX16]
Rep. Dennis Kucinich [D-OH10]
Rep. Frederick Upton [R-MI6]
Rep. Baron Hill [D-IN9]
Rep. Robert Scott [D-VA3]
Rep. Carolyn McCarthy [D-NY4]
Rep. Jerrold Nadler [D-NY8]
Rep. Tom Udall [D-NM3]
Rep. Lamar Smith [R-TX21]
Rep. George Butterfield [D-NC1]
Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen [R-NJ11]
Rep. Ray LaHood [R-IL18]
Rep. Paul Kanjorski [D-PA11]
Rep. Raymond Green [D-TX29]
Rep. Barton Gordon [D-TN6]
Rep. James McGovern [D-MA3]
Rep. Jim Costa [D-CA20]
Rep. John Tierney [D-MA6]
Rep. Wayne Gilchrest [R-MD1]
Rep. Artur Davis [D-AL7]
Rep. John Conyers [D-MI14]
Rep. Henry Cuellar [D-TX28]
Rep. Raul Grijalva [D-AZ7]
Rep. Yvette Clarke [D-NY11]
Rep. Rick Renzi [R-AZ1]
Rep. Tim Holden [D-PA17]
Rep. William Delahunt [D-MA10]
Rep. Dennis Moore [D-KS3]
Rep. Michael Arcuri [D-NY24]
Rep. Christopher Carney [D-PA10]
Rep. Heath Shuler [D-NC11]
Rep. Solomon Ortiz [D-TX27]
Rep. Christopher Smith [R-NJ4]
Rep. Eliot Engel [D-NY17]
Rep. Michael Thompson [D-CA1]
Rep. Nita Lowey [D-NY18]
Rep. Charles Melancon [D-LA3]
Rep. Charles Rangel [D-NY15]
Del. Eleanor Norton [D-DC]
Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz [D-FL20]
Rep. Gregory Meeks [D-NY6]
Rep. Lincoln Davis [D-TN4]
Rep. Robert Wexler [D-FL19]
Rep. Sam Farr [D-CA17]
Rep. Alcee Hastings [D-FL23]
Rep. Melvin Watt [D-NC12]
Rep. Kathy Castor [D-FL11]
Rep. Dennis Cardoza [D-CA18]
Rep. James Ramstad [R-MN3]
Rep. Allyson Schwartz [D-PA13]
Rep. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin [D-SD]
Rep. Keith Ellison [D-MN5]
Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen [R-FL18]
Rep. Jesse Jackson [D-IL2]
Rep. Michael McNulty [D-NY21]
Rep. Michael Capuano [D-MA8]
Rep. Adam Smith [D-WA9]
Rep. Adam Schiff [D-CA29]
Rep. Ed Perlmutter [D-CO7]
Rep. Nancy Boyda [D-KS2]
Rep. Anna Eshoo [D-CA14]
Rep. Daniel Lipinski [D-IL3]
Rep. Earl Pomeroy [D-ND]
Rep. Gary Ackerman [D-NY5]
Rep. Diane Watson [D-CA33]
Rep. Nicholas Lampson [D-TX22]
Rep. Michael Ferguson [R-NJ7]
Rep. Jason Altmire [D-PA4]
Rep. Michael Michaud [D-ME2]
Rep. David Obey [D-WI7]
Rep. Jerry McNerney [D-CA11]
Rep. James Marshall [D-GA8]
Rep. Robert Cramer [D-AL5]
Rep. Timothy Walz [D-MN1]
Rep. Edolphus Towns [D-NY10]
Rep. John McHugh [R-NY23]
Rep. Christopher Shays [R-CT4]
Rep. Diana DeGette [D-CO1]
Rep. Ellen Tauscher [D-CA10]
Rep. Hilda Solis [D-CA32]
Rep. Addison Wilson [R-SC2]
Rep. Rush Holt [D-NJ12]
Rep. Tim Murphy [R-PA18]
Rep. Charles Gonzalez [D-TX20]
Rep. Mark Udall [D-CO2]
Rep. Ike Skelton [D-MO4]
Rep. Linda Sánchez [D-CA39]
Rep. Bruce Braley [D-IA1]
Rep. Dale Kildee [D-MI5]
Rep. James McDermott [D-WA7]
Rep. Chaka Fattah [D-PA2]
Rep. Stephen Lynch [D-MA9]
Rep. David Wu [D-OR1]
Rep. Sanford Bishop [D-GA2]
Rep. Donald Payne [D-NJ10]
Rep. Ron Klein [D-FL22]
Rep. James Saxton [R-NJ3]
Rep. Gabrielle Giffords [D-AZ8]
Rep. Collin Peterson [D-MN7]
Rep. Spencer Bachus [R-AL6]
Rep. Thomas Allen [D-ME1]
Rep. Zoe Lofgren [D-CA16]
Rep. John Sullivan [R-OK1]
Rep. Tom Lantos [D-CA12]
Rep. Bennie Thompson [D-MS2]
Rep. Peter Visclosky [D-IN1]
Rep. Steven LaTourette [R-OH14]
Rep. Doris Matsui [D-CA5]
Rep. Timothy Ryan [D-OH17]
Rep. Ciro Rodriguez [D-TX23]
Rep. Fortney Stark [D-CA13]
Rep. Charles Dent [R-PA15]
Rep. Rodney Alexander [R-LA5]
Rep. Ric Keller [R-FL8]
Rep. Nick Rahall [D-WV3]
Rep. John Spratt [D-SC5]
Rep. Jim Gerlach [R-PA6]
Rep. Jerry Costello [D-IL12]
Rep. Juanita Millender-McDonald [D-CA37]
Rep. Lucille Roybal-Allard [D-CA34]
Rep. James Langevin [D-RI2]
Rep. Nydia Velázquez [D-NY12]
Rep. Jo Bonner [R-AL1]
Rep. Robert Andrews [D-NJ1]
Rep. Charles Wilson [D-OH6]
Rep. Loretta Sanchez [D-CA47]
Rep. Jo Ann Emerson [R-MO8]
Rep. Harry Mitchell [D-AZ5]
Rep. Kirsten Gillibrand [D-NY20]
Rep. Corrine Brown [D-FL3]
Rep. David Loebsack [D-IA2]
Rep. Ben Chandler [D-KY6]
Rep. Allen Boyd [D-FL2]
Rep. Joe Courtney [D-CT2]
Rep. Frank Pallone [D-NJ6]
Rep. Joe Donnelly [D-IN2]
Rep. Henry Johnson [D-GA4]
Rep. Melissa Bean [D-IL8]
Rep. Neil Abercrombie [D-HI1]
Rep. John Tanner [D-TN8]
Rep. Rosa DeLauro [D-CT3]
Rep. John Dingell [D-MI15]
Rep. Joseph Crowley [D-NY7]
Rep. John Yarmuth [D-KY3]
Rep. Kendrick Meek [D-FL17]
Rep. Mary Bono Mack [R-CA45]
Rep. Betty McCollum [D-MN4]
Rep. Jane Harman [D-CA36]
Rep. Lynn Woolsey [D-CA6]
Rep. Steven Rothman [D-NJ9]
Rep. Barbara Lee [D-CA9]
Rep. Barney Frank [D-MA4]
Rep. Tammy Baldwin [D-WI2]
Rep. Victor Snyder [D-AR2]
Rep. Steve Kagen [D-WI8]
Rep. John Hall [D-NY19]
Rep. Maxine Waters [D-CA35]
Rep. Phil Hare [D-IL17]
Rep. Anthony Weiner [D-NY9]
Rep. Al Green [D-TX9]
Rep. Steve Israel [D-NY2]
Rep. Carolyn Maloney [D-NY14]
Rep. Maurice Hinchey [D-NY22]
Rep. Robert Berry [D-AR1]
Rep. Louise Slaughter [D-NY28]
Rep. Joe Sestak [D-PA7]
Rep. Bobby Rush [D-IL1]
Rep. Carolyn Kilpatrick [D-MI13]
Rep. Lloyd Doggett [D-TX25]
Rep. Janice Schakowsky [D-IL9]
Rep. José Serrano [D-NY16]
Rep. Jim Matheson [D-UT2]
Rep. Dan Boren [D-OK2]
Rep. Xavier Becerra [D-CA31]
Rep. Peter Welch [D-VT]
Rep. Alan Mollohan [D-WV1]
Rep. Marcy Kaptur [D-OH9]
Rep. Martin Meehan [D-MA5]
Rep. Rahm Emanuel [D-IL5]
Rep. James Oberstar [D-MN8]
Rep. William Clay [D-MO1]
Rep. Thomas Edwards [D-TX17]
Rep. John Barrow [D-GA12]
Rep. Russ Carnahan [D-MO3]
Rep. Mazie Hirono [D-HI2]
Rep. Jean Schmidt [R-OH2]
Rep. Jim Cooper [D-TN5]
Rep. Rick Larsen [D-WA2]
Rep. Steny Hoyer [D-MD5]
Rep. Mike McIntyre [D-NC7]
Rep. Bob Etheridge [D-NC2]
Rep. Charles Pickering [R-MS3]
Rep. Zach Wamp [R-TN3]
Rep. Jay Inslee [D-WA1]
Rep. Christopher Van Hollen [D-MD8]
Rep. Frank LoBiondo [R-NJ2]
Rep. Steve Cohen [D-TN9]
Rep. Joe Baca [D-CA43]
Rep. Albio Sires [D-NJ13]
Rep. Danny Davis [D-IL7]
Rep. Donald Young [R-AK]
Rep. David Price [D-NC4]
Rep. Brad Sherman [D-CA27]
Rep. Betty Sutton [D-OH13]
Rep. John Sarbanes [D-MD3]
Rep. Richard Neal [D-MA2]
Rep. William Jefferson [D-LA2]
Rep. Frederick Boucher [D-VA9]
Rep. Norman Dicks [D-WA6]
Rep. Bart Stupak [D-MI1]
Rep. Michael Honda [D-CA15]
Rep. Vernon Ehlers [R-MI3]
Rep. Brian Higgins [D-NY27]
Rep. Robert Brady [D-PA1]
Rep. Paul Hodes [D-NH2]
Rep. James Moran [D-VA8]
Rep. Eddie Johnson [D-TX30]
Rep. Susan Davis [D-CA53]
Rep. Edward Pastor [D-AZ4]
Rep. John Murtha [D-PA12]
Rep. Elijah Cummings [D-MD7]
Rep. Earl Blumenauer [D-OR3]
Rep. Leonard Boswell [D-IA3]
Rep. Stephanie Jones [D-OH11]
Rep. Ronald Kind [D-WI3]
Rep. John Lewis [D-GA5]
Rep. Albert Wynn [D-MD4]
Rep. Carol Shea-Porter [D-NH1]
Rep. Paul Gillmor [R-OH5]
Rep. Shelley Berkley [D-NV1]
Rep. Sander Levin [D-MI12]
Rep. David Scott [D-GA13]
Rep. Brad Ellsworth [D-IN8]
Rep. Howard Berman [D-CA28]
Rep. John Olver [D-MA1]
Rep. Mike Ross [D-AR4]
Rep. Barbara Cubin [R-WY]
Rep. Luis Gutiérrez [D-IL4]
Rep. Michael Doyle [D-PA14]
Rep. Lois Capps [D-CA23]
Rep. Christopher Murphy [D-CT5]
Rep. Brian Baird [D-WA3]
Rep. Henry Waxman [D-CA30]
Rep. John Larson [D-CT1]
Rep. Todd Platts [R-PA19]
Rep. Rubén Hinojosa [D-TX15]
Rep. Peter DeFazio [D-OR4]
Rep. Frank Wolf [R-VA10]
Rep. Emanuel Cleaver [D-MO5]
Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger [D-MD2]
Rep. William Pascrell [D-NJ8]
Rep. Darlene Hooley [D-OR5]
Rep. George Miller [D-CA7]
Rep. Julia Carson [D-IN7]
Rep. Patrick Murphy [D-PA8]
Rep. James Clyburn [D-SC6]

i would call that a democrat sponsored bill. if you remember, the democrats were furious the first time it failed, saying that republican intervention would cause the destruction of the economy. i believe they said about the same thing when it came to the auto bailout. you know that your government is lying when they say that we have to throw billions at the auto bailout and then when it fails they say that bankruptcy is okay after all and that it won't impact the economy much. OH REALLY?

[texdav]

Loks that way to me looking at the sponsors.Don't many republicns or any major republicans really.Usually when you see that few from one party it makes you wander what Pork they allowed them to get them on board.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by floridasandy

i am getting tired of your little whining diatribes against america. america was in the forefront of production and rose to the highest standard of living in the world.

This is ironic, as I'm not the one that is continuously whining about America. You do little but whine about what you perceive to be the state of the economy, yet speak little about how to actually improve matters. Perhaps, that is because you are too busy copying/pasting other people's thoughts to be bothered with actually thinking about matters.

I ask again, if American is transferring wealth to other nations why is America so indebted to other nations? Capital has been flowing into the US, not out.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by chuck22b

Proportionally speaking, vis a vis production, most of the population and migrant workers in China aren't getting their worth in labor capital.

So says someone that has likely never visited China? Who determines when they are or are not getting their worth?

Basically, your position (many people here have similar positions, it seems) is that you know better than the free markets what particular things are worth. Lets just cut to the chase, what you want is a centrally planned economy.

Originally Posted by chuck22b

By far most of the capital moves to the top and to the government entities. Similar I guess to when the States underwent an industrial revolution, and workers were basically slave labor.

China's reforms have done a better job of taking people out of poverty than has ever been seen before. But, apparently, that does not matter so long as the distribution of wealth is not up to your standards.

You seem to have no idea how these migrant workers lived before the reforms.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by floridasandy

i would call that a democrat sponsored bill. if you remember, the democrats were furious the first time it failed,

You can call it whatever you like, but as I said there are many Republicans that sponsored the bill and it was crafted with the support the Republican president. The president could have also vetoed matters.

Everything I stated was accurate.

Originally Posted by floridasandy

you know that your government is lying when they say that we have to throw billions at the auto bailout and then when it fails they say that bankruptcy is okay after all and that it won't impact the economy much. OH REALLY?

Yawn. It was an issue of timing, the credit markets were collapsing when GM originally needed money. A collapse in GM would have been rather problematic and would've likely cost more as GM debt has tons of related credit default swaps.

Once these markets improved, it was possible to let GM go into bankruptcy.

So yes, REALLY.